Hey, who hasn't owned a Banshee here?????

I think the answer depends on the build of the motors. You could build any motor to such a high state of tune that it is a rolling grenade. I can't say there is one answer here. If you got specific and said a stock banshee with pipes and a stock 450R with exhaust, then they would both last a good long time and both put out comparable power ~ 44 - 45 hp.

Come rebuild time - we have more to replace, hence, higher cost.

But, compare the two rides... The same two quads above - which one would YOU rather have?

Frankly, I now hate my old Banshee. I didn't know how bad it was until I got my 450R...

I just realized that it's almost been 20 years since the Banshee came out.....

 

thanks for the reply,




and yes, lets say there both stock.



alot of people on this site dont understand the type of money and time a rebuild for a 4-stroke really needs, and they dont understand the real problems they can have down the road.



anyones to comment on the main topic here.





-lumi

 

I think they're equally reliable, just depends on the persons experience. For maintenance and reliablity, I still think 2 strokes are easier, due to less parts, less things to worry about, and very simple to work on. As long as you use quality oil and a good premix ratio, and proper fuel then there's not a lot to go wrong except for gelling a carb for letting it sit.

 

thanks for the reply sredish.


im just wondering why these damn things are so expensive to rebuild. :11doh:





-lumi

 

think of it this way...its easier to make a 2stroke put out a good amount of power....after all they produce power in only 2 strokes of the piston....whereas a 4stroke which makes it power every 4th strokes, takes more to make the same power...displacement being one, however with bigger displacement comes more weight, but ya gotta admit the 450 motor aint much heavier then its 250 2stroke cousin. Basically to get a 4stroke to make similar power as a 2stroke it has to be in a higher state of tune, and as we all know power aint cheap! basically think of a stock 450R as being on the same tune level as a heavilly modded banshee. Right out of the box these motors are built for one thing....POWER, if ya want a reliable 4stroke get a 400ex, but if ya want the power of an R ya gotta pay to play...its just the way it is. I personally wouldnt trade it for the world....tho im sure alot of the guys I see at the dunes that are riding there 450R's like pansies where they could EASILY be happy with the power of a 400ex (but have to have the newest best bike) :crazy: will soon regret it when they realise how much maintainence these bikes require.

 

2 strokes hands down and it all depends on the quality of keeping it up also oil and properly done air filters less parts to boot but you build a HP bike no matter what 2 or 4 they will eat you in maintenance and preventive maintenance like changing pistons and other parts BEFORE failure

 

thanks for the replys guys.



i was just wondering, because a banshee being a high performance motor and all, how it compares to a 450r motor. and i think i got a good feel from your opinions and my own thoughts. :thumbsup:








-lumi

 

Originally posted by Lumi@Oct 8 2006, 07:43 AM
thanks for the replys guys. 



i was just wondering, because a banshee being a high performance motor and all, how it compares to a 450r motor. and i think i got a good feel from your opinions and my own thoughts. :thumbsup:








-lumi

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the thing that makes a banshee a little more pricey, parts/rebuild wise quite obviously the twin cylinders.... 2 pistons, 2 this, 2 that, but think of it as twice the fun.... :blush:

 

but on the other hand for a 450r,


the valves eventually on every quad will get cupped or streched and will need changing, so when you change the valves most likely you will need to re-cut the seat, which im not sure how much that is but cant be cheap, and or you get a new head which is 300$ for a 06.

80 bucks for stock valves and 300 for a new head with seals is already 400. and if you throw a timing chain in there 430 or something like that.


so not including the cylinder and piston, it takes about $430 more to rebuild a 450r compared to a banshee, this is saying you do all the labor by yourself.


now does anyone know how long it will take these ti valves to eventually cup or strech, even tho i keep my air filter clean and maintain the valve clerance and oil changes, i have heard alot of people changing them within one year?

so far after about 6 months of ownership of the 06 the valves are in good condition. im running a stock engine.

and towards my ealier question if no one saw it, how much does a seat cut cost, and is it for everytime you change valves?



thanks for reading



-lumi

 

One thing is for sure, we are comparing two very different motors. If you took a CBR600 motor and stuck it into a quad in completely stock form... which would last longer, the Banshee at 100 hp or the 600?

I don't think it will ever be apples to apples. The 450 and Banshee don't even compete in the same class. Why not compare a XR650 motor to the Banshee? They're both "open class"? Or a Raptor?

Isn't is proper to compare the 450 with a 250 2 stroke? The AMA thinks so...

If you get that 250 up to 50 hp, how long does the piston last? The same? Maybe less? But, that's all you have to replace - they are simple motors. They also suffer from one main problem - narrow powerbands.

I believe this is a discussion that will never end...

 

One thing is for sure, we are comparing two very different motors. If you took a CBR600 motor and stuck it into a quad in completely stock form... which would last longer, the Banshee at 100 hp or the 600?

If you drove that bike down some dirt roads behind somebody every day and put in a K and N how much shorter would it live in quads it's all dirt comparing a street bike rode in a less silty environment it's not the same what about all those street bike engines in quad frames how long are they living :dunno:

now does anyone know how long it will take these ti valves to eventually cup or strech, even tho i keep my air filter clean and maintain the valve clerance and oil changes, i have heard alot of people changing them within one year?

about a year yamahas seem to last a longer due to softer seats

 

thanks for the replys guys.



thanks backspace, i was thinking that.







-lumi

 

One thing a 4 stroke has over a 2 stroke is tractably power less wheel spin but a 4 stroke has to be almost 2 times the size compared to a 2 stroke and 4 stroke technology is coming of age with a few more technologies still left to be made in a production motor


Honda had a environmentally friendly 2 stroke that got caned was the evo1 if i remember the name right was a 400cc two stroke that only fired the spark plug on start up and over 40% throttle used free radical to keep the combustion had a exhausts valve that kept exhaust gases in to do the combustion process and was fuel injected and they tried to do it with a carb but was caned and it think it completed a Baja 500 or 1000 race was supposed to have electric like power

you know if it burns oil or gas and does it completely whats the difference but you really see it on a cold 2 stroke especially a 2 stroke thats direct injected since oil still has to be delivered to the crankcase to oil the piston and rod and main bearings ever see a direct injected 2 stroke water craft on start up it's like a mosquito foggier and worst you cannot do away with that even 4 strokes have to have a catalytic converter and it to has to heat up to 600 degrees first to work but dont smoke unless you motors due for a rebuild

2 strokes I :wub: 4 strokes I just starting to

 

Originally posted by BackSpace@Oct 8 2006, 04:09 PM
One thing a 4 stroke has over a 2 stroke is tractably power less wheel spin but a 4 stroke has to be almost 2 times the size compared to a 2 stroke and 4 stroke technology is coming of age with a few more technologies still left to be made in a production motor 


Honda had a environmentally friendly 2 stroke that got caned was the evo1 if i remember the name right was a 400cc two stroke that only fired the spark plug on start up and over 40% throttle used free radical to keep the combustion had a exhausts valve that kept exhaust gases in to do the combustion process and was fuel injected and they tried to do it with a carb but was caned and it think it completed a Baja 500 or 1000 race was supposed to have electric like power

you know if it burns oil or gas and does it completely whats the difference but you really see it on a cold 2 stroke especially a 2 stroke thats direct injected since oil still has to be delivered to the crankcase to oil the piston and rod and main bearings ever see a direct injected 2 stroke water craft on start up it's like a mosquito foggier and worst you cannot do away with that even 4 strokes have to have a catalytic converter and it to has to heat up to 600 degrees first  to work but dont smoke unless you motors due for a rebuild

2 strokes I  :wub:  4 strokes I just starting to 

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thanks for the info.



as for the last statement i with u backspace.






-lumi

 

I have been running 250R's since 1986 when the TRX250R came out. I just purchased an 06 450R in Aug. with the plan to trail ride/road race it as a weekend warrior. Since I have purchased it I have seen 2 YFZ's that the piston and wristpin bosses became seperated, rod broke and basically totalled the motor. Both these machines were supposedly kept up with regular oil changes and maintence. But both of them let go while going flat out down the road.

I am wondering if in this situation if it wouldn't be better to throw all the gear that you can at these machines to try and keep the RPM's somewhat lower for instances in which they are being screamed down the roads for long periods of time.

 

Originally posted by JC-TRX250R@Oct 8 2006, 03:32 PM
But both of them let go while going flat out down the road. 

More than likely, this had to do with jetting. It's a common myth that 2 strokes can be ran wide open for too long but as I said, that's a myth. As long as their jetted properly, there's no reason at all that it couldn't be ran at WOT for as long as you'd like. Just think of how the Banshees once ruled Baja. Your talking a LOOONNNGGG race with some serious speed and throttle.

 

im pretty sure the seats have to be cut everytime you change valves



is this true? and how much is it is cut?




thanks
-lumi

 

By both I meant both YFZ 450s broke. My 250R I have been road racing since 1986 with no problem right up until 5 years ago when it was turned strictly into a 300 ft dragger. I have held the 250r WOT for miles and miles going down the road.

What I would like to know is why the YFZ's are breaking like this. Both were completly stock. The last one was an 05, not sure what the other one was. Is this something that I have to look forward to with the Honda?

Originally posted by sredish+Oct 8 2006, 06:10 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-JC-TRX250R

@Oct 8 2006, 03:32 PM
But both of them let go while going flat out down the road. 

More than likely, this had to do with jetting. It's a common myth that 2 strokes can be ran wide open for too long but as I said, that's a myth. As long as their jetted properly, there's no reason at all that it couldn't be ran at WOT for as long as you'd like. Just think of how the Banshees once ruled Baja. Your talking a LOOONNNGGG race with some serious speed and throttle.

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[/b]

 

Originally posted by JC-TRX250R@Oct 8 2006, 06:46 PM
By both I meant both YFZ 450s broke.  My 250R I have been road racing since 1986 with no problem right up until 5 years ago when it was turned strictly into a 300 ft dragger.  I have held the 250r WOT for miles and miles going down the road. 

:thumbsup:

 

What I would like to know is why the YFZ's are breaking like this. Both were completly stock. The last one was an 05, not sure what the other one was. Is this something that I have to look forward to with the Honda?

................................................................................................

This was a problem with the 04-06 YFZ only. They didnt have the oil squirter in the case that shot oil on the wrist pin. The cases can be modified, but its something that should be left to a reputable builder. The 07 YFZ case has this built in from Yamaha now.

Check out Duncan Racing's website under 4 stroke tech. There is a write on how to do it to the 04-06 YFZ's.

It seems as if all the big thumpers have there own issues. I am currently dealing with some metal shaving in my oil right now on my 2004 R. I wonder what the new LTRs major malfunction will be?

 

What I would like to know is why the YFZ's are breaking like this. Both were completly stock. The last one was an 05, not sure what the other one was. Is this something that I have to look forward to with the Honda?

................................................................................................

This was a problem with the 04-06 YFZ only. They didnt have the oil squirter in the case that shot oil on the wrist pin. The cases can be modified, but its something that should be left to a reputable builder. The 07 YFZ case has this built in from Yamaha now.

Check out Duncan Racing's website under 4 stroke tech. There is a write on how to do it to the 04-06 YFZ's.

It seems as if all the big thumpers have their own issues. I am currently dealing with some metal/alum shavings in my oil right now on my 2004 R. I wonder what the new LTRs major malfunction will be?

 

before i start a new thread i know some people in here will chim in for my next question.



does anyone ever heard of removable and replacement valve seats. these ones on a old honda street bike i engine i rebuilt looks like the seats come off or something? does the 450r have something like this.





-lumi

 

yes they can be replaced but require special equipment

It's said if you weld a bead around the inside of the seat it will fall out from shrinking but it's just as cheep to get a new head as to recondition a new one and would have to trust the person to do it !!!!!

 

Originally posted by BackSpace@Oct 8 2006, 11:57 PM
yes they can be replaced but require special equipment

It's said if you weld a bead around the inside of the seat it will fall out from shrinking but it's just as cheep to get a new head as to recondition a new one and would have to trust the person to do it  !!!!! 

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your absolutely right backspace. :thumbsup: makes sense.


most people say that the intakes goes first in the manner of cupping and expanding and that the s.s. valves are more durable, but i thought that titanium is stronger than steel? Is that why ti wears the seat quciker?


so all in all everytime you need new valves from cupping or expanding, a new head is probably in the make? it would be the best choice. most people i know are telling me every year, so once a year a new valve set and head is required?$400 + piston kit?


in my view seems expensive and alot for one year. my piston and valves seem to be in good conditon after more than half a year of riding. 6-7 months.




thanks again for replys and listening to my questions.

-lumi

 

there is nothing more reliable than a two stroke.....

far less moving parts......no valve timing issue....no broken timing chains...

roller bearings throughout the engine.......etc...

no oil pump.........

anyone who has ridden through the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc....knows the ONLY reason for the development of the 4-stroke as a 'performance' powerplant is due to EMMISIONS......

one reason for the 2-stroke 'myth' of WOT issues is this...a 2-stroke produces the HIGHEST level of performance as you LEAN down the engine....so if your running right on the ragged edge of HP for 300' drags...this SAME A/F ration would NOT be good for long distance running... however, a simple main jet change will certainly correct this condition......

and If i was stuck in Baja.....and had to choose between my 250R...and my 450R......it would definitely be my 250R to get me home....

info only....Greg