Honda TRX 450R banner
1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just bought an 2005 and I'm looking for all the up grades. So far I've purchased the carbon pro from white bros, hot cam, T2 tag bars, 13t renthal counter sprocket, and a k&N w/ outer wear. None of it has been installed yet until I complete the research and do it all at once. stock this bike is dead slow compaid to my friends stock YFZ450. I'm going to have some mild porting done as per hot cam instuctions and I've read someone here has that vortex ignition cdi unit. witch one is best and more practical and where can I get it. the dealer that is posted at vortex sight does'nt show a listing. I want make sure it will be $400. dollars well spent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
Ive heard good things about the vortex X10. Duncan Racing sell it for 400$. I would also like to here how ell it goes.
 

·
Lord of Combustion
Joined
·
14,065 Posts
all i can tell you is a friend of mine who races A class bought a programmable version for his highly modded ltz400 and wanted to get some dyno runs since he couldn't feel any change on any of the settings. the dyno runs didn't show any difference on any of the settings either.

if someone wants to make a really useful high dollar ignition they should make one that has an offset flywheel key so you can advance the trigger point several degrees and then map with that advantage.

until someone does that i am only interested in a lower dollar one that merely raises the rev limit. also , if your machine isn't making so much high rpm power that you hit rev limit often due to a drop in power signaling a gear change, that also would be a low priority mod.

.................mixxer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
is it that bad? I was giong to get one this winter. Anyone who tryed it on there 450R.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,846 Posts
I haven't had any time to test mine out yet really just around a 1 acre yard. It feels like it is making a difference on the different settings but I never got it out of 1st unless I was starting in 2nd. I will let you know more later.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,912 Posts
I will be installing mine this weekend, and will be able to give it a good test. Motor mods so far: Vortex now; yoshi ti pro; hotcam stage 2; k&n w/outerwear. Coming fst500 kit.... ti intake valves, ported/flowed head, and heavier valve springs. Thats it for now.

But i'll let you know by monday
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,877 Posts
If you're doing all that work, why limit that engine with a Hotcams 2, it just doesn't match the rest of your config.

You should look at the Megacycle X1 cam - it's a much better fit for your combo & since you're getting head work done anyways, it'll not be a big deal to work over the guides to allow the use of this cam.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
497 Posts
Ive heard good things about the vortex X10. Duncan Racing sell it for 400$. I would also like to here how ell it goes.[/b]
A friend of mine has had this for a few weeks and he does not seem to be too impressed with it. He was actually considering selling it but just might keep to raise the rev limiter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Originally posted by mixxer@Sep 22 2004, 09:51 PM
if someone wants to make a really useful high dollar ignition they should make one that has an offset flywheel key so you can advance the trigger point several degrees and then map with that advantage.
With a "really useful high dollar ignition", you don't need an offset flywheel key. The 450R has a large enough trigger window that a flywheel key is not needed. If you wanted the effect of a 5 degree key, just reprogram your ignition box with 5 more degrees all the way across the timing curve. Want an extra 20 degrees? Think you can get a 20 degree key? You could easily dial in 20 more degrees with an ignition. How much timing you can add will vary with model of bike, but on most newer bikes, the ignition will give you a broader range of adjustment. On the 450R, you can add WAY more timing than you are ever likely to need. Another reason not to use a key with a programmable ignition is that when you add a key, you add timing even at kick start. With an ignition, you can keep the kick starting timing low and add the timing everywhere else, and have less likelihood of a kickback. Your right leg will thank you.


Brad
Dynatek
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,912 Posts
Gabe you are probably right, as in most cases. “I honor your Buddha nature”(I watch to much win Ben Stein’s money) I'll have to call him Monday, but he is putting the assy together using new cores so when I get it up here in the great white north.

All I will have to do is bolt in the cam assembly and adjust valves. Wouldn’t Mickey need the whole assembly in order to put in the oversized cam.

Yeah I think I should... more power makes me happy. For me to send everything I would be down a motor for over a month just shipping in most cases.

Again your advise is always welcome and appreciated.

Thanks
 

·
Lord of Combustion
Joined
·
14,065 Posts
Originally posted by Brad+Sep 24 2004, 01:24 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-mixxer
@Sep 22 2004, 09:51 PM
if someone wants to make a really useful high dollar ignition they should make one that has an offset flywheel key so you can advance the trigger point several degrees and then map with that advantage.
With a "really useful high dollar ignition", you don't need an offset flywheel key. The 450R has a large enough trigger window that a flywheel key is not needed. If you wanted the effect of a 5 degree key, just reprogram your ignition box with 5 more degrees all the way across the timing curve. Want an extra 20 degrees? Think you can get a 20 degree key? You could easily dial in 20 more degrees with an ignition. How much timing you can add will vary with model of bike, but on most newer bikes, the ignition will give you a broader range of adjustment. On the 450R, you can add WAY more timing than you are ever likely to need. Another reason not to use a key with a programmable ignition is that when you add a key, you add timing even at kick start. With an ignition, you can keep the kick starting timing low and add the timing everywhere else, and have less likelihood of a kickback. Your right leg will thank you.


Brad
Dynatek [/b]
great news bradley!! now how about doing all of us a favor and selling ignitions for less than 1/12 the cost of the entire bike!!


bang for buck ignitions are still last place on the list of perf mods. all the trx needs is the rev limit lifted

since when has any bike needed an extra 20deg of advance over stock????

and i don't think you should leave +5deg in all the way across the scale , why don't you cut it back at high revs, you know when the turbulance caused by the intake velocity creates a faster burn rate??? +5 then would limit peak revs

.............mixxer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Originally posted by mixxer@Sep 24 2004, 08:06 PM
great news bradley!!  now how about doing all of us a favor and selling ignitions for less than 1/12 the cost of the entire bike!!
 
Sorry, I don't sell ignitions. I just design em.


bang for buck ignitions are still last place on the list of perf mods.  all the trx needs is the rev limit lifted[/b]
Thats not what I have heard. At least one person posting in this thread has tested a programmable TRX450R ignition vs stock on a dyno, and found extra power below the rev limit with a different curve. I will leave it to you to guess who that person is
.


since when has any bike needed an extra 20deg of advance over stock????[/b]
That was an example of how much leeway you have with the stock TRX450R pickup pattern. You can get as much as 70 degrees of advance with a programmable ignition. Do you need that much? Doubtful. But the flexibility is there, so there is no point in adding a degree key.

If you were talking about a TRX400ex, I would agree a degree key is needed because the timing nub on the outside of the flywheel limits total advance. But not on a TRX450R, or many other sport quads.


and i don't think you should leave +5deg in all the way across the scale ,  why don't you cut it back at high revs,  you know when the turbulance caused by the intake velocity creates a faster burn rate???  +5 then would limit peak revs[/b]
So you are agreeing that it doesn't make sense to add timing all across the scale? Then why exactly did you suggest that someone needs to make a programmable ignition with a degree key? One second you are complaining about the cost of programmable ignitions, and the next you want us to add another $$ part, and even more cost to it??? Talk about trying to have your cake, and eat it too :D

Brad
 

·
Lord of Combustion
Joined
·
14,065 Posts
brad, i stand by the FACT that ignitions are the worst bang for the buck in the performance market.

take the retail price for one of your ignitions and allow me that amount in other parts. the finished product of mine with cam and piston vs yours with ignition would be a slaughter. the same goes for each dollar amount we would like to add to the budget until i make my final performance option, which would then be ignition.

unless many other mods are done to most\all atvs even the rev limit is not a concern since the power curve would dictate a shift needed before the rev limiter.

as for someone attesting to the superior power added by a programmable ignition, i would have to ask what other mods have they done or are even capable of? if unplugging and replugging in a component is at the limit of your mechanical prowess, you are likely to give such mods an undue amount of credit.

do you have a dyno brad? i do. are you competent with porting tools? i am.
do you do engine builds on every engine you make parts for and dyno tune at each step of the way? i do do you own each machine that you develop components for so there can be constant evaluation of other mods? i do how about patents brad? i do

to think that the engine dynamics could be altered so dramatically by merely remapping the ignition curve is to suggest that the people who build the entire machine (in this case Honda) have little or no engineering competence. the original map would have to be so far off the mark for an ignition to drastically or even measurably enhance performance, it's not likely.

beginning with a not so far off the mark oem ignition, the subtle enhancements possible by different mapping depend entirely on the OTHER engine parameters.
you don't set a map and then go about changing all the other engine components to match. do you?

first you build the engine, THEN you go about altering curves (also fuel dependant) to optimise the combination. i don't see too many(any) tech articles from your company outlining the stages of modification per machine as well as the curve that works best with each setup. instead we are more likely to see a switch that the customer is supposed to adjust until they THINK they feel something going on.

i try to help these guys ; save money\ save time \ save their engine. why don't you try to do something along these lines? other than a raised rev limit when the motor is modded to the point when you hit it constantly, the biggest acceleration difference you will feel from a high dollar ignition is from the weight difference via your MUCH lighter wallet!!!

all my love for your help brad......................mixxer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Originally posted by mixxer@Sep 25 2004, 08:47 AM
brad,  i stand by the FACT that ignitions are the worst bang for the buck in the performance market.
Mixxer, I wasn't trying to get into a pissing match here. I just posted to point out that you don't need a degree key with a programmable 450R ignition, which is what you were saying we needed. I still am curious as to WHY you would recommend that. Can you explain that?

As for the reason behind raising the rev limiter on a mildly modded quad, some people do that so that they aren't forced to shift on a track. Even if they are making less power, they don't want to shift yet. This gives them that option. And if they don't like it, they can switch it back.

Your assumption about factory ignitions aren't quite on the mark though. We have survived in the ignition market because there is quite often something left to be desired with the factory ignition. On older bikes, the ignition design was cheaped out on. Low tech, low spark energy, in many cases, even a lack of a processor so that they have to rely on a very simplified timing curve, or fixed timing. Newer quads have this processor, but their timing is still not necessarily going to be optimum. We've found improvments over stock ignitions time and time again. On a dyno. On a testbench. On the racetrack. At the drag strip. These improvements aren't imaginary.

The quick dyno pulls I did with a 450R showed a 1-2HP gain in the 5-8K range over the stock ignition, on a bike with a pipe, HRC cam, and I think it also had a high compression piston. Oh, and it also showed a 30+hp gain over 9800 rpm.
We will see how it looks as the ignition nears production, we are still testing it now. I guess I probably shouldn't bother offering to sign you up on our testing program though :lol:

And as far as you claiming its a FACT that they are the worst bang for the buck, you should really cut back on the drama. In order for you to be wrong about this, I'd only need to find 1 product that has worse bang for the buck. Do you really want to stand by your statement? There's lots of "performance mods" out there that do absolutely nothing, so would have lower bang for the buck no matter what they cost. Will an ignition do as much for you as a big bore kit? Most likely not, unless the engine builder really sucked. The ignition is just one more piece in a whole puzzle of things to get optimal performance out of an engine, any engine.



Brad
Dynatek
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Originally posted by desert_450r@Sep 25 2004, 09:25 AM
Here's a good analogy ... The sport bikes of today that are 4 cylinder or even 6, still are carbed and you don't see too much along the lines of successful ignitions available for the mass market ...
Desert_450r,

You are a few years behind the times
The sportbikes now are more often injected than not. Back when they were still carbed, ignition mods were pretty popular. It was easier to slap an adjustable ignition on them, and quite often gain substantially. In the early-mid 90s, the ignition timing curves on these left some power on the table. The manufacturers are MUCH better about their timing curves on the sport bikes now. Although I still hear/see of instances where they doing funny stuff with the timing curves. Some kill power down low in the low gears to as a safety measure for wheelies, and the ensuing death that the lawyers fear from those killer wheelies:wacko: Even one quad has this wheelie prevention, the Prairie. Add a few degrees of timing to it, and it really wakes right up.
I suspect that you are right, that as more emissions parts go onto the bikes, we will see more opportunities to improve the stock timing/fuel maps.

The knock sensing and other protections built into the stock ECU on many cars now is great, I use it a good bit when working with my car. I'd love to see that sort of thing on bikes, but I expect that will be a while.


Brad
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Sportbikes, I'd say more are injected than carb'd
Honda
CBR600F4i since 01 or 02
CBR1000RR
CBR600RR
CBR1100xx

Kawasaki
ZX6R
ZX6RR
ZX10R
ZX12R

Suzuki
GSXR600
GSXR750
GSXR1000
GSXR1300
GSXR10000000000000
TL1000S
TL1000R

Yamaha
R1
R6

Thats just some of the injected bikes off the top of my head. There aren't too many true sport bikes being carbed anymore. Here is list of bikes dynojet makes powercommanders for(ie. they are injected)

http://powercommander.com/buynowbike.shtml

The conversion to injection came pretty quick in sport bikes. Suzuki and Triumph started off some injected bikes in 97. By 2002-2003, most sportbikes were injected. With tighter emissions regs coming into place in 2006(if my memory is correct), its inevitable. The costs on the injection is definitely there, but as the units are being brought into more and more widespread use, they are getting the costs down. At first, the technology did seem to spook people, and there were carb conversions being sold. But now, most people keep the FI, and either figure out how to reprogram the stock ECU, or add something like a power commander to tune it. Other than harley owners, I haven't had anyone ask about carb conversions since 98 or 99 I think.

Brad
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
Thanks Brad for those post,

I have been waiting eagerly for a cdi for my 450r sportrax, they have been pushed back to October 19 when I called, whats going on with the 450r cdi, are they having trouble.

Most of my riding is at the sandunes, so I am spinning alot bouncing off the rev limiter with my mods

Thanks

Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,422 Posts
The quick dyno pulls I did with a 450R showed a 1-2HP gain in the 5-8K range over the stock ignition, on a bike with a pipe, HRC cam, and I think it also had a high compression piston. Oh, and it also showed a 30+hp gain over 9800 rpm. We will see how it looks as the ignition nears production, we are still testing it now. I guess I probably shouldn't bother offering to sign you up on our testing program though

damn, that one big gain must be one hell of a curve :huh:
 

·
Lord of Combustion
Joined
·
14,065 Posts
boone, that is a little humor in reference to the fact that the stock 450r makes NO power after the 9800 rpm limiter hits.

brad , as for me cutting down on the drama, it's not a switch, it's a rheostat that you control. the trigger on the rheostat is "magic fairy dust". you stop dusting and i'll stop the drama :lol:

i like brad more today than 2 days ago. not that brad has been losing any sleep over the fact.

it was nice to point out that the gains were made on a non stock motor. props for that

how about admitting that the curves ARE very cam\ compression\ and octane dependant for maximum gains. how much do you get when using a setup used by the majority of your customers: pipe + air filter+ ignition +pump gas? no pissing match here, i'm just asking. (not because i'm going to test it and call you on it or anything like that
)

my animosity is from the lack of manufacturers in our sport divulging any useful facts about proper setups and actual gains. just magic "across the board" gains: "throw your hard earned cash in this box and reach your hand into this magic black box and pull out the voodoo of your dreams." "whatever you're looking for bottom, mid , top this: (insert any component here) does it all."
ironic that we are on ignitions in this thread because they are one of few components with that POTENTIAL. the worst offenders of this were the two-stroke pipe makers who were always claiming more power everywhere over their competitors.
hardly anything could be more focused in it's power altering characteristics than 2-stroke pipes.

brad, i'm not pissing here. just stating what i know. if i could build ignitions with multiple curves, they would be motor build and octane dependant, and stated as designed for such. first you build the particular engine combo, then you MATCH the ignition to it. i know you know this. you can't tell someone how to jet their carb unless you know the rest of the setup for the same reasons.

let me clarify an earlier statement: of components that actually gain power , high dollar ignitions are the worst bang for the buck. and given their characteristics,have the most potential to do good when tailored to a heavily modded motor coupled wth a high octane fuel. in that instance someone like brad would have the MOST latitude\potential to do good things to the power curve. one size fits all and one box optimises all motor\fuel combos doesn't exist. i haven't even seen one specifically made for high octane fuel only.

brad, how about building some boxes for the lunatic fringe motors\fuels (maybe even a special alcohol curve) and labeling them as unsuitable for anything less?
you would then be a demi-god in the world of atv ignitions. think about it, ok?!
we always want more than the next guy. thats why we're on this site. the market and self advertising appeal for such a "dangerous box" could be huge. in any event, make at least one and sell it to me :lol: ....................mixxer
 

·
Lord of Combustion
Joined
·
14,065 Posts
Originally posted by Brad@Sep 25 2004, 02:50 PM
 
  The quick dyno pulls I did with a 450R showed a 1-2HP gain in the 5-8K range over the stock ignition, on a bike with a pipe, HRC cam, and I think it also had a high compression piston. Oh, and it also showed a 30+hp gain over 9800 rpm.
We will see how it looks as the ignition nears production, we are still testing it now. I guess I probably shouldn't bother offering to sign you up on our testing program though :lol: 

  Dynatek
does anyone else see something wrong with the statement, coming from someone developing "state of the art (dark?)" ignitions, that states : i THINK it also had a high compression piston "


wow, is it just me, or would anyone else like a little better detail being put into the development documentation?!
does this scream undifferentiated, generic timing curves or what? we don't care (know) what we are testing it on because we don't really care how it gets used.

as for earlier statements about the thriving ignition business, i believe this has as much to do with their ease of installation as anything else. if they were as challenging as a stroker crank to install, you would note an attendant decline with their popularity.

......................mixxer
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top