Originally posted by desert_450r+May 29 2004, 01:34 PM-->
Originally posted by
[email protected] 29 2004, 11:02 AM
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@May 29 2004, 12:56 PM
I am going to agree with 86. I used to ahve a Raptor and down low they are monsters but thats about it, from low to mid is your only usefull power. Anything over that they fall flat on their face.
Ok guys, if they have all this torque...why are they so damn slow for a 660?...they have alot of horsepower, if there is so much usable torque...where did it go...You guys might want to think this out a little harder.
I think if you look at the defenition of TQ vs. HP you will find your answer ...
Torque: a force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion <an automobile engine delivers torque to the drive shaft...
Horsepower: a unit of power equal in the U.S. to 746 watts and nearly equivalent to the English gravitational unit of the same name that equals 550 foot-pounds of work per second ...
Here's my attempted translation:
Torque is the amount of twisting force applied to something as a max measure at a given RPM ... Horsepower is the amount of force applied OVER TIME ... It's not that simple but for our sake here, it's all that's needed ...
Example: Let's talk autos ... A Chevy 350 small block built hardily makes a lot more HP than torque ... (this is like the 450r) ... A chevy 454 hardily built makes bukoo torque over the 350 and can make similar HP ... Now drag them in the 1/4 mile ... Logic would say that the bigger numbers overall would win ... But it's not the case ... The 454 will more than likely all things relative will eat the 350 off the line to say 60' .. Once the 350 builds RPM, it will meet the big block out a ways and then it's up to HP to win from there; torque is largely irrelevant once they have overcome the resistance of standing still out to about 60' or so ...
The Raptor MUST have more low end torque than the 450; it has way more displacement ... IMO torque is irrelevant once rpm's are built and you're rolling ... Now enter a steep incline with sand ... Now it's not so clear who the winner will be ... The 450 has less displacement and if it bogs out of it's powerband for too long, the Raptor's bigger displacement can tolerate falling out of it's powerband longer ... So say you start comp hill in 4th on both bikes, and the bikes both bog half way up, the raptor will most surely hold on longer before downshifting as it's tendency to bog at low RPM is there, but it has the TQ to help it ... The 450 peeters out and must downshift when it bogs below it's optimum output to hold speed ...
So it is true to say, the raptor will have more stump pulling torque than the 450, it has to ... It's got more cc's ... Now once you're rolling, it's up to HP, Gearing and weight to carry the win ... On a flat surface ... Introduce deep sand, or a hill, and now you may tip the scales in favor of torque if the 450 is allowed to drop out of it's optimal power to gear rpm range ...
Now even simpler, a Raptor is kin to an avalanche 2500 with the 8.1 liter ... The 450r is kin to the avalanche 1500 5.3 liter ... The 2500 will pull much more as it is geared to get the load moving ... But the 1500 beats the 2500 in a drag and 0-60 by a tenth stock for stock ... Put both on a steep hill and the 2500 will probably win as it will hold it;s gear longer and the 1500 will have to stay "spooled" to keep up ... Now put both these avalanches at the bottom a steep hill from a stop and even though the they have near equal HP ratings, the 8.1 will eat the 5.3's lunch ... B)
Back to Raptor vs. 450r ... If the raptor has the same HP to weight ratio as your 450r, and you race it, better make sure he don't get the hole shot ... Now if he does get the hole shot, you better have a better HP to wt ratio to run him down in the distance provided ... If he gets the hole shot on a hill; well you really better be good in your combo ... I have said before, hill climbing is big on hp yes, but gearing, experience and weight along with traction go a long ways ... That is if 2 bikes are similar in HP to WT ratio ... hehe
What complicates this further is the fact that maybe the HP under the curve is better on the R so max HP is not as important either ... And if I had a $1 the 450r probably has quite a bit more under the curve than the raptor so this makes the raptor's displacement less of an issue on the run ... Not to mention, I bet Yamaha spaced the gear ratios further apart than that on the 450r taking advantage of it's displacement ...
~ [/b]