[Poiks]

I wanted to check the timing on my 450R, so I followed the service manual and had no luck.

One problem: since the 450R has no battery, I had to use the battery in my 4Runner for power to the timing light. That shouldn't matter, right?

I did everything according to spec, but when I shined the light down in the timing hole and onto the flywheel, I couldn't see the "F" mark at all. Weird.

One question: When I put the cam in, it looked as if there were two positions the cam could have gone in: each 180° apart. There were two bolts. Obviously I got it in, and since it runs I assume it's not 180° off! Can anyone confirm that it must be in right?

The quad runs fairly strong, so I'm guessing everything is okay. But I would've liked to be able to check the timing.

 

[lukester720]

Is it hard to start or anything and did you measure the valve clearence? All the marks should be lined up, that's the easy way to check the timing. BTW it doesn't matter which way the cam was facing just as long as the marks line up. Do you know where to find the 3 different marks if not I will tell you, just let me know. Btw what cam did you get?

 

[Poiks]

Thanks lukester720. I have the HRC kit/cam and a 13T front. I popped the cam in without checking the clearances. But I'm glad to know that it's not off by 180°!

All the marks line up. It starts very easily and seems to run normally. I've been trying to track down why it just doesn't feel as strong as I'd thought it would. People have said that an HRC 450 should walk away from a pipe/jetted Raptor, and that's just not the case.

Weird that checking the timing using the service manual instructions didn't work...

 

[04450]

poiks, how much do you weigh? i weigh 240lbs and didnt have a problem w/piped raptors when my bike was stock on test hill

 

[Poiks]

Originally posted by 04450@May 28 2004, 09:48 AM
poiks, how much do you weigh? i weigh 240lbs and didnt have a problem w/piped raptors when my bike was stock on test hill

190. Who knows...maybe the whole thing is my imagination!

 

[86atc250r]

I too expected more out of the HRC kit, given the hype I'd heard from others.

Not saying the quad isn't fast, heck, in a 300' drag it's practically a draw with all the cam modded YFZ's I've run - but I felt it lost some of it's "explosiveness" I liked when it was stock.

If you really want to wake up the HRC setup, get a 40mm FCR --- if you want to further wake it up, get a pipe.

The 40mm FCR is an easy and somewhat inexpensive upgrade. This engine really likes the FCR.

 

[lukester720]

Poiks, I'm not sure what kind of riding your doing, but with the hrc if your not revving it out then your are not really using this cam. the hrc cam is a top end cam(horsepower). If you are doing tight trails or technical mx or anything like that you probably should have got a bottom to mid type cam(torque) like the sparks.

 

[TRX450rlude]

the thing you need to know when racing Raptors, is what kind of terrain your racing on. I have found that Raptors will hang right with you on pavement type terrain, or smooth flat surfaces. But if you are in sand, or climbing up a grade, or racing in anything that takes a load. the Raptor will not come close. The Raptor has alot of horsepower, but no torque, thats why they suck so bad in sand....hope this helps.

 

[86atc250r]

I think you got that backwards --- the Raptor has a ton of torque

 

[TRX450rlude]

Originally posted by 86atc25r@May 29 2004, 12:07 PM
I think you got that backwards ---  the Raptor has a ton of torque

OOOOK....whatever you say. :huh:

 

[Schmitthead]

I am going to agree with 86. I used to ahve a Raptor and down low they are monsters but thats about it, from low to mid is your only usefull power. Anything over that they fall flat on their face.

 

[TRX450rlude]

Originally posted by Schmitthead@May 29 2004, 12:56 PM
I am going to agree with 86. I used to ahve a Raptor and down low they are monsters but thats about it, from low to mid is your only usefull power. Anything over that they fall flat on their face.

Ok guys, if they have all this torque...why are they so damn slow for a 660?...they have alot of horsepower, if there is so much usable torque...where did it go...You guys might want to think this out a little harder.

 

[TRX450rlude]

Originally posted by desert_450r+May 29 2004, 01:34 PM-->

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 11:02 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Schmitthead

@May 29 2004, 12:56 PM
I am going to agree with 86. I used to ahve a Raptor and down low they are monsters but thats about it, from low to mid is your only usefull power. Anything over that they fall flat on their face.

Ok guys, if they have all this torque...why are they so damn slow for a 660?...they have alot of horsepower, if there is so much usable torque...where did it go...You guys might want to think this out a little harder.

I think if you look at the defenition of TQ vs. HP you will find your answer ...

Torque: a force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion <an automobile engine delivers torque to the drive shaft...

Horsepower: a unit of power equal in the U.S. to 746 watts and nearly equivalent to the English gravitational unit of the same name that equals 550 foot-pounds of work per second ...

Here's my attempted translation:

Torque is the amount of twisting force applied to something as a max measure at a given RPM ... Horsepower is the amount of force applied OVER TIME ... It's not that simple but for our sake here, it's all that's needed ...

Example: Let's talk autos ... A Chevy 350 small block built hardily makes a lot more HP than torque ... (this is like the 450r) ... A chevy 454 hardily built makes bukoo torque over the 350 and can make similar HP ... Now drag them in the 1/4 mile ... Logic would say that the bigger numbers overall would win ... But it's not the case ... The 454 will more than likely all things relative will eat the 350 off the line to say 60' .. Once the 350 builds RPM, it will meet the big block out a ways and then it's up to HP to win from there; torque is largely irrelevant once they have overcome the resistance of standing still out to about 60' or so ...

The Raptor MUST have more low end torque than the 450; it has way more displacement ... IMO torque is irrelevant once rpm's are built and you're rolling ... Now enter a steep incline with sand ... Now it's not so clear who the winner will be ... The 450 has less displacement and if it bogs out of it's powerband for too long, the Raptor's bigger displacement can tolerate falling out of it's powerband longer ... So say you start comp hill in 4th on both bikes, and the bikes both bog half way up, the raptor will most surely hold on longer before downshifting as it's tendency to bog at low RPM is there, but it has the TQ to help it ... The 450 peeters out and must downshift when it bogs below it's optimum output to hold speed ...

So it is true to say, the raptor will have more stump pulling torque than the 450, it has to ... It's got more cc's ... Now once you're rolling, it's up to HP, Gearing and weight to carry the win ... On a flat surface ... Introduce deep sand, or a hill, and now you may tip the scales in favor of torque if the 450 is allowed to drop out of it's optimal power to gear rpm range ...

Now even simpler, a Raptor is kin to an avalanche 2500 with the 8.1 liter ... The 450r is kin to the avalanche 1500 5.3 liter ... The 2500 will pull much more as it is geared to get the load moving ... But the 1500 beats the 2500 in a drag and 0-60 by a tenth stock for stock ... Put both on a steep hill and the 2500 will probably win as it will hold it;s gear longer and the 1500 will have to stay "spooled" to keep up ... Now put both these avalanches at the bottom a steep hill from a stop and even though the they have near equal HP ratings, the 8.1 will eat the 5.3's lunch ... B)

Back to Raptor vs. 450r ... If the raptor has the same HP to weight ratio as your 450r, and you race it, better make sure he don't get the hole shot ... Now if he does get the hole shot, you better have a better HP to wt ratio to run him down in the distance provided ... If he gets the hole shot on a hill; well you really better be good in your combo ... I have said before, hill climbing is big on hp yes, but gearing, experience and weight along with traction go a long ways ... That is if 2 bikes are similar in HP to WT ratio ... hehe

What complicates this further is the fact that maybe the HP under the curve is better on the R so max HP is not as important either ... And if I had a $1 the 450r probably has quite a bit more under the curve than the raptor so this makes the raptor's displacement less of an issue on the run ... Not to mention, I bet Yamaha spaced the gear ratios further apart than that on the 450r taking advantage of it's displacement ...

~ [/b]

good work, you are very knowledgable. However I know from experience that my friends HMF piped and jetted raptor, that used to beat my stock 450r, now looses to me every time. He looses by a much bigger margin if we are going up a hill or something, where torque is needed.....

I never said the TRX had more torque then the raptor, Of course the raptor has more tourque, its a 660. If you read my original post you will see I mentioned that. What I was talking about is usable torque. although the raptor is heavier then the trx, with the displacement difference it should be about even...Now I probably cant break it down with the big words and mathmatical equations that you used. But I can look that up on the internet. Or ask you>>..haha. :lol: ...I do see your point....but the fact of the matter is....in real world situations, with all my experiences of racing raptors at little sahara. The Raptor is closer to me on a flat surface then it is on a hill......

My good friend who rides with me about every time I ride has a 04 Raptor that HMF piped and jetted...it runs real good. On flat surfaces like concrete we are neck and neck, even with my current mods. but when we get in the sand or on hills....he just parks and watches us....I also have time slips of me racing him in the 1\8 mile at our local drag strip....I beat him every race...I messed up on the start of one race and he passed the finish line before me, but when we got our time slips, my time was .65 sec faster then his....we were both stunned....Its just that he would have had to pass the finish line more then .6 sec before me to beat me....but he did not...thats why my time was still faster....BTW, thats the only time he passed the finish line before me...most of the time my times were 9.4 or 9.5 and his were 9.8 or 9.9.

 

[86atc250r]

Ok guys, if they have all this torque...why are they so damn slow for a 660?[/b]

Because all their torque is down low & the powerband is fairly narrow.

Ask yourself why a typical diesel engine pulls so well, but is generally slow in the acceleration dept. It's not because they're all HP and no torque. (OK Diesel guys, I know there are fast diesels out there)

Hopefully Desert cleared up some of the HP and torque confusion. But to claim that the Raptor is all HP and no torque is a very odd statement indeed.

 

[TRX450rlude]

Originally posted by 86atc25r@May 29 2004, 02:29 PM
QUOTE

Ok guys, if they have all this torque...why are they so damn slow for a 660?

Because all their torque is down low & the powerband is fairly narrow.

Ask yourself why a typical diesel engine pulls so well, but is generally slow in the acceleration dept. It's not because they're all HP and no torque. (OK Diesel guys, I know there are fast diesels out there)

Hopefully Desert cleared up some of the HP and torque confusion. But to claim that the Raptor is all HP and no torque is a very odd statement indeed. [/b][/quote]
hey 86 how old are you?

A diesel pulls so hard because of the gearing....if you put a turbo diesel with proper gearing the thing would run 10 sec querter miles at 140 mph....thats why. B)

 

[86atc250r]

Hmm,

You're seriously lost --- I suggest you take the time to learn a little more before attempting to be sarcastic or cute. Works much better when you have a clue about what you're talking about.

There's so much wrong with what you've said that it's completely beyond the scope of this messageboard to even begin to discuss it.

Best to stop typing now before you expose any more of your lack of knowledge on this subject.

Nuff said.

 

[TRX450rlude]

Originally posted by 86atc25r@May 30 2004, 02:36 AM
Hmm,

You're seriously lost --- I suggest you take the time to learn a little more before attempting to be sarcastic or cute.  Works much better when you have a clue about what you're talking about.

There's so much wrong with what you've said that it's completely beyond the scope of this messageboard to even begin to discuss it.

Best to stop typing now before you expose any more of your lack of knowledge on this subject.

Nuff said.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And you are?
You dont even have a ride that has cams.
Its funny you talk big, but you didnt tell me how old you are

Judging from the way you sound, and your ignorant temper, I would say your about 12....good boy.

 

[TRX450rlude]

Originally posted by 86atc25r@May 30 2004, 02:36 AM
Hmm,

You're seriously lost --- I suggest you take the time to learn a little more before attempting to be sarcastic or cute.  Works much better when you have a clue about what you're talking about.

There's so much wrong with what you've said that it's completely beyond the scope of this messageboard to even begin to discuss it.

Best to stop typing now before you expose any more of your lack of knowledge on this subject.

Nuff said.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I keep reading this over and over, Wow...you really think Im clueless....and I need to stop typing....I cant get enough of this one... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[TRX450rlude]

thanks desert 450r. I wish I could express myself like that. You have a gift. My gifts are in other areas I guess. What you said makes total since. thanks for breaking it down in not so big words, so people like me can understand it.......by the way Im not as dumb as you guys might think, I already knew pretty much everything you said.....When I said it could run a 10 sec quarter mile I was exaggerating. (if I spelled that right I will be amazed). ....I understand what you guys are saying about the short powerband. thats why some of them have 23 gears, and some have 13 gears....I Know a diesel engine puts out alot of torque at a low RPM...thats why I like my 4Runner. But my point was just like you said. They gear them to have alot more torque then the engine puts out.....thats why they have so much torque, even though the engine already puts out tons of torque.

 

[TRX450rlude]

Originally posted by desert_450r@May 30 2004, 12:12 PM
As my friend Frank always used to say,

"We straight Dawwg"

It really is a multi-facetted statement that covers a lot of ground haha ...

Yes, lude, I can be expressive but the thing that sucks is IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO TYPE... On another forum I was at, I got made fun of for writing novels ... Haha ... But I had a lot of folks who appreciated the detail ... I guess us anal-retentive perfectionists (don't confuse perfectionist with correctness) have our place in society ...WEB FORUMS !

~

we straight....I like you detail....I will read your post anytime....You know your shiznit.