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Oregon Coast Powersports
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Discussion Starter #1
to start off; i know some may not want to give real methods, numbers, and %'s.

im also fairly certain that most members (even informed of what the pros do) would still send their heads off.

im also certain that i will get some smart #*@ remarks. thats ok, i want to learn as much as i can from those that know much more than me.

my porting experience started with my edelbrock heads for my sbc. i have many of these types of heads under my belt. i read the books that i could find, talked to experienced racer/ mechanics, and went to the flowbench. never had an engine dynoed, but i have 500 passes logged @ the 1/4 mile. i dont know everything, but my s10 kept getting faster so i know that what i was doing worked.

now im am trying to conclude if the same type of work, works on our 450 heads?

my bike runs good. few beat it. and now, here is how i go about it... others please chime in

intake

i dont move any material from the entrance of the port. i dont take any material from the floor. i take the throat to 89-90% valve diameter. i cut down the guides .050ish .the bowl area is 93% valve diameter. the choke (short turn) is 80% vd and the radius is smoothed. the divider length is untouched but profiled.

exhaust

throat is 85-87%. the short turn is radiused. the bowl is also 93% vd. no material taken from the roof. moslty scared of making holes. polished finish.


i posted this to share info. hopefully its good info. let me hear it if im way off. like i stated previously, i want to learn so im all ears.
 

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I think that info would help alot of people, who want to try things themselves. Alot of people are scared of porting, but there's only one way to learn it, 450 heads are cheap compared to V8 heads.... so if one out performs another.... note it down and try something else....
 

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Heres my method.....

I take a nice clean (usually new) cylinder head, wrap it well, find a real nice sturdy box, place the head into the box and tape it well, then send it to Venom and let him worry about what, where, and how to port that sucker to my desired configuration!


I love my method ;)
 

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Heres my method.....

I take a nice clean (usually new) cylinder head, wrap it well, find a real nice sturdy box, place the head into the box and tape it well, then send it to Venom and let him worry about what, where, and how to port that sucker to my desired configuration!


I love my method ;)[/b]

Yes....but what is the Ve of the box you send it in, and do you believe it will arrive faster using UPS or Fed-X?

sorry....couldnt resist.....


it is relatively safe to perform some of this work yourself..... even if you have no experience..... so long as you keep it to a simple 'clean up'.... removing casting imperfections... smoothing out (polishing) the exhaust ports....... smoothing, by hand, the FLOW of the intake ports, but then leaving somewhat of a rough finish on them to reduce the boundary layer, etc.....I would leave any port floor changes or un-shrouding of the valves to an experienced porter....like mentioned above....


jmho.....me~
 

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I too would like to know the pros opinions and see how they different. btw hoave you guys seen the worlds smallest v8?? its freaking bad ass!
 

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I too would like to know the pros opinions and see how they different. btw hoave you guys seen the worlds smallest v8?? its freaking bad ass![/b]
You meen the one that's on a bench yeah I eant to put one in a rc car.
 

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Oregon Coast Powersports
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Discussion Starter #7
Heres my method.....

I take a nice clean (usually new) cylinder head, wrap it well, find a real nice sturdy box, place the head into the box and tape it well, then send it to Venom and let him worry about what, where, and how to port that sucker to my desired configuration!


I love my method ;)[/b]

Yes....but what is the Ve of the box you send it in, and do you believe it will arrive faster using UPS or Fed-X?

sorry....couldnt resist.....


it is relatively safe to perform some of this work yourself..... even if you have no experience..... so long as you keep it to a simple 'clean up'.... removing casting imperfections... smoothing out (polishing) the exhaust ports....... smoothing, by hand, the FLOW of the intake ports, but then leaving somewhat of a rough finish on them to reduce the boundary layer, etc.....I would leave any port floor changes or un-shrouding of the valves to an experienced porter....like mentioned above....


jmho.....me~
[/b]
I do perform the work myself. I explained what I do. I am asking for advice from others.
 

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Oregon Coast Powersports
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Discussion Starter #8
Don't highjack another thread. Lets keep it on track.
 

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it is relatively safe to perform some of this work yourself..... even if you have no experience..... so long as you keep it to a simple 'clean up'.... removing casting imperfections... smoothing out (polishing) the exhaust ports....... smoothing, by hand, the FLOW of the intake ports, but then leaving somewhat of a rough finish on them to reduce the boundary layer, etc.....I would leave any port floor changes or un-shrouding of the valves to an experienced porter....like mentioned above....[/b]
FYI:

A while back I flow tested a head for an .org member,...

For the most part, his goal was to document and present the gains made on his 'cleanup' port job compared against stock.

here's a link to the 'clean up' thread...

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?sho...c=58181&hl=
 

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Sorry didn't mean to hi jack the thread.

I would've have left the choke alittle smaller personally the rest of the numbers look good. It all depends what you are usingthe head for. you always want some slope going to and from the choke pont. It acts like a ventury when done correctly.
 

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its good that youre getting out there and wanting to learn P&P for these heads.
my guess with alot of seat time and your history you can get there.

Im just not so sure many builders will come on here and give their tips away.

either way, wish you luck.
 

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it is relatively safe to perform some of this work yourself..... even if you have no experience..... so long as you keep it to a simple 'clean up'.... removing casting imperfections... smoothing out (polishing) the exhaust ports....... smoothing, by hand, the FLOW of the intake ports, but then leaving somewhat of a rough finish on them to reduce the boundary layer, etc.....I would leave any port floor changes or un-shrouding of the valves to an experienced porter....like mentioned above....[/b]
FYI:

A while back I flow tested a head for an .org member,...

For the most part, his goal was to document and present the gains made on his 'cleanup' port job compared against stock.

here's a link to the 'clean up' thread...

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?sho...c=58181&hl=
[/b]
Thank you sir!

I will go more agressive with chino v.2..........LOL!
 

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it is relatively safe to perform some of this work yourself..... even if you have no experience..... so long as you keep it to a simple 'clean up'.... removing casting imperfections... smoothing out (polishing) the exhaust ports....... smoothing, by hand, the FLOW of the intake ports, but then leaving somewhat of a rough finish on them to reduce the boundary layer, etc.....I would leave any port floor changes or un-shrouding of the valves to an experienced porter....like mentioned above....[/b]
FYI:

A while back I flow tested a head for an .org member,...

For the most part, his goal was to document and present the gains made on his 'cleanup' port job compared against stock.

here's a link to the 'clean up' thread...

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?sho...c=58181&hl=
[/b]

Chad...im not sure how that thread compares to my statement..... I did not see any flow bench numbers done before and after of that head......and I would not call what Chino did as a 'clean up'....... but more of an actual Porting Job...... for which he performed after studying the issue at hand.....and knowing where he wanted to remove the material from........ and it appears as though it was beneficial in his case......

porting...is like choosing the best cam...or best pipe... or even best bike for that matter..... it all depends on what your GOALS are...and what you have to work with....... there is NO 'best' port job, best pipe, best cam, etc....... everything must work TOGETHER....... if not.. you just have a lot of expensive parts fighting with each other........ and (5) kids all pulling together on the same team will beat (5) PRO NFL football lineman in a game of tug-o-war...if the NFL players are fighting amongst themselves...


my personal opinion.....Greg
 

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it is relatively safe to perform some of this work yourself..... even if you have no experience..... so long as you keep it to a simple 'clean up'.... removing casting imperfections... smoothing out (polishing) the exhaust ports....... smoothing, by hand, the FLOW of the intake ports, but then leaving somewhat of a rough finish on them to reduce the boundary layer, etc.....I would leave any port floor changes or un-shrouding of the valves to an experienced porter....like mentioned above....[/b]
FYI:

A while back I flow tested a head for an .org member,...

For the most part, his goal was to document and present the gains made on his 'cleanup' port job compared against stock.

here's a link to the 'clean up' thread...

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?sho...c=58181&hl=
[/b]

Chad...im not sure how that thread compares to my statement..... I did not see any flow bench numbers done before and after of that head......and I would not call what Chino did as a 'clean up'....... but more of an actual Porting Job...... for which he performed after studying the issue at hand.....and knowing where he wanted to remove the material from........ and it appears as though it was beneficial in his case......

porting...is like choosing the best cam...or best pipe... or even best bike for that matter..... it all depends on what your GOALS are...and what you have to work with....... there is NO 'best' port job, best pipe, best cam, etc....... everything must work TOGETHER....... if not.. you just have a lot of expensive parts fighting with each other........ and (5) kids all pulling together on the same team will beat (5) PRO NFL football lineman in a game of tug-o-war...if the NFL players are fighting amongst themselves...


my personal opinion.....Greg
[/b]
Greg, I'm confused to why you think there was no flow bench numbers done before and after on chinos head. The flow chart provided and posted in his thread has his gains compared against a completely stock head out the new box from HONDA.

Clearly Chino's efforts should be commended, and I meant no insult to him or anyone by suggesting his work is only cleanup, but in fact, its what I consider the recorded gains to be.

As I explained to chino on the phone when he asked me to compare his gains,... I said more than 3 times his flow can be obtained... its more than just making a hole bigger for sure... Chinos was the first to properly document the entire process start to finish.


BTW: I love your 5 kids tug-o-war against 5 Pro analogy... that was aweome! LOL!
 

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I musta missed it...

I saw your flow bench numbers..... but I must not have realized they were before/after results of chino's head...

but...for whatever its worth..... I do not agree that bench numbers.... correlate to an equal amount of HP/TQ gained on a Dyno.....

if you have spent enough years researching flow bench numbers...and know what you are looking for... then you can reasonably assume how a specific head, with specific numbers will perform on a Dyno...... but it doesnt always turn out that way..... flow benches.... for all practical purposes.... do not 'duplicate' dynamic forces w/in the engine during operation..........

however...I do not doubt that Chino 'gained' from his experience....and I commend him for that.....but not everyone can and/or will do the homework required...or even have the ability to perform the tasks at hand...... this is why I said, beyond normal 'clean up' of the head......and certainly before removing large amounts of material or un-shrouding around the valves, etc..... bare minimum... consult a qualified and trusted engine porter...... it might just be worth it to send your head off and have it done for you.......rather than the time, tools, knowledge, etc... that is required to obtain the gains necessary to make the trouble worthwhile........

again...jmho......me~
 

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Why does every manufacture of car heads give flow numbers to there heads if flow numbers didnt mean anything? just asking?

The best motor builders in the world that have been doing motors over 30 years still use flow benches. Why?

Back to the thread. doesnt mixxer have a good thread where he compared HV porting vs standard some where on here? or was that yfztech?
 

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Why does every manufacture of car heads give flow numbers to there heads if flow numbers didnt mean anything? just asking?

The best motor builders in the world that have been doing motors over 30 years still use flow benches. Why?[/b]

That's crazy talk
 

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Why does every manufacture of car heads give flow numbers to there heads if flow numbers didnt mean anything? just asking?

The best motor builders in the world that have been doing motors over 30 years still use flow benches. Why?[/b]


Well....lets see.... first off... not EVERY manufacturer of "car heads" give flow numbers...... for example, call Chevy up right now, tell them you want a pair of heads for a 2008 Corvette.... see if they describe/advertise their cylinder heads in FLOW numbers.... or simply part numbers according to year/model/make of vehicle and engine it was supplied with......... then, when your done talking to the parts department over the counter, pick up a new pamphlet for the same vehicle... see if there is any mention of the flow of the cylinder heads listed under the specs of this vehicle.........OR... if they rate the engine in this vehicle by HORSEPOWER...... like almost every single engine maker in the world does....... and remember...this is America's sports car.... you should be able to find much more 'flow numbers' on this engine....than your typical grocery getter....

as for the second statement about engine builders......thats not difficult to figure out...... the flow bench is a TOOL..... those same motor builders you talk about probably also use screwdrivers, ratchet sets, torque wrenches, etc..... that does not mean you MUST use a ratchet to achieve more HP....but it might be quicker or easier to bolt down the head with.....or it might be quicker/easier to tighten the carb with......but that does not mean that it is the 'end all/be all' of engine building...... again, its simply a tool to make their life easier.....and to help REPRODUCE a specific porting technique or goal....

if you read my post.... I spoke about 'experience'...and how someone that has access to BOTH a dyno and flow bench... who builds a specific engine on a routine basis....CAN, just by looking at the flow bench numbers, predict a specific HP out of a particular head.......but on the same notion, w/o that 'experience' in working with a SPECIFIC engine type, those numbers mean very little..... I highly doubt even coveted engine builders like Reyer-Morrison, could come close to predicting the HP of a typical 450R engine if you told him your heads were flowed at 260cfm...... that means nothing to them.... until they know the stock head output, ALL the additional parts of the working engine, and have access to a DYNO to put the completed engine on....once completed.... then, after performing this task repeatedly (this is where I mention Experience), they would eventually get to know that a 450R head will produce approx. 60hp if the head can flow 260 or so......if all else remains equal.....and yes, there are 450R engine builders that can predict HP numbers according to how their specific head flows...... but they also know all the other components of their engines... which cam profile to use, which intake, carb, pipe, piston, etc.....will all be used together... again, Experience is the key word to reading flow bench numbers.....

however....take that 60hp, 260cfm head, and put a stock TRX cam in there.....and see if you still get 60hp.... you wont.....

and THIS is why I say.....flow numbers are not nearly as important as DYNO numbers.....and they never will be.... there is too much going on inside of an engine to determine how ONE aspect of it effects the others.....you must test this engine, with all of its components, working together at the same time........Dynamics cannot be readily duplicated outside of a running engine.....

on a side note.....have you flowed your intakes against your competitors...and if so, do you mind sharing those numbers for us???


let me add this....I WISH I had a flow bench machine.....I also WISH I had a dyno..... but I dont....and highly doubt I ever will given the cost.....those are TOOLS for which I simply cannot afford... so I have to rely on others, that do have them, to give me the information I desire.....along with most of the rest of us....


p.s....sorry for this Hijack... I know this thread was about porting Techniques...not this.. again, sorry....
 

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Oregon Coast Powersports
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Discussion Starter #19
chad,

what is benchmark these days for a 450 head? curisous to know what you are seeing? give me some advice. you offered to flow a head for me a while back when i posted pics on the other site. i wish i would have had the time to take you up on that.


come on guys. spill the beans on your stuff.
 

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i read some where that 2 heads can flow the same numbers but one can make way more hp, i think its the velocity at which the air moves thats important,

i could be way of base, and im sure most of these top builders are not guna give out info to there heads, why would they? theyve spent countless hours working on them , just to give it out > i think not
 
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