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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i'm not sure how many people here are using racing fuel right now, but it looks like many of us are going to or have already gone past 12:1 compression. so... i think it would be good to have a place to share information on racing fuel.

i recently purchased some 110 octane for the first time and as usual, have some Q's. first, there are not many local places that sell racing fuel. my resources are VERY limited. i found a small gas station close by that sells 100 and 110 octane gas. the owner says that his 110 fuel supplier is sunoco. i wanted to make sure this 110 was not a "back yard" blend, so i visited the sunoco web site...
http://www.racegas.com/fuelspecs/default.asp

you will notice that the sunoco 110 (MON) is blue in color; however, the gas that i purchased is pink. i am hoping that some people here have some experience blending, pumping, or just purchasing race fuel and can shed some light on this mystery fuel situation.

i have also visited other web sites...
http://www.citgo.com/Products/FuelGasoline...ingGasoline.jsp
http://www.smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html

after this research, it appears that this fuel could be many different things... like CITGO 110 to name one. i guess my Q's are:

1. has anyone else had similar experiences where the color and octane don't match the brand?
2. is this fuel really sunoco?

BTW the price is $3.05/gal... not too bad, but maybe i should just suck it up and buy VP @ $8.00/gal from the powersports shop 1 hour away. they are only selling it in 5gal containers for $40.00... :(
 

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I pay $32 for 5 gallons. Some are different colors I know. Unless your running 12.1 or better there's no reason for it. If you are higher than that. You can go with a 50/50 ratio. That is good enough. Race gas is to expensive to just throw around. VP is a good brand. I get cheveron 110 and it seems to be just fine!
 

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My neibor used to drag race quads not too long ago and suggested to me to buy aircraft fuel. He told me when this type of fuel is in storage that it wont lose it's octane like regular premium fuel does. He also said it burns cooler and slower than regular octain fuel. I haven't tried it yet but am considering it.
 

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Originally posted by quadboy@Oct 6 2004, 06:14 PM
My neibor used to drag race quads not too long ago and suggested to me to buy aircraft fuel. He told me when this type of fuel is in storage that it wont lose it's octane like regular premium fuel does. He also said it burns cooler and slower than regular octain fuel. I haven't tried it yet but am considering it.
All race gas should make your engine run cooler. But, where there's a plus there's a minus. Yes your engine will run cooler, but it will also make it run harder!
You have to give to get. You can't have both worlds. That's why I say 50/50. I have heard of that aircraft fuel....Never used it though!! B)
 

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Mixxing Fuels?!!!!! Sorry for this Rico but...... This crap really gets to me when I read this. "Blending" fuels is done at the refineries. Mixxing fuels is never done in the sense you think it is. Every motorsports web site does this I have ever visited and it's perpetual. Magazines print this crappy load of misinformation all the time because some dumb @ss told him it works.

I don't think this site has heard my tirade about mixxing gasolines by dumping 1 gallon of one gas with another gallon of another gas or whatever so, I'll make it short and sweet.

Are you a petrochemist? If you're not, don't do it.
Do you have the proper test equipment to know what you are getting when you are done? If you don't, don't do it.
Do you actually know the outcome of "mixxing" fuels? If you don't, don't do it.

Some engine builders say it's the "only way to make the bike run right" or some bullpoope like that. It's the same engine builder that is always waiting for parts, or his bike really rips but, everytime you talk to him it's apart for some reason. It's the same guy that dumped 1 gallon of 93 unleaded into one gallon of AV gas and says he has 96 octane fuel.

Let me just tell you to NOT mix fuel types. I've seen some unbelievable concoctions that people say it's makes their bike run better. Until I prove them wrong. Run race fuel, or don't. Run leaded fuel, or don't. Run pump gas, or don't. Use whatever you want, I don't care. But when you're sitting alongside the trail with a holed piston, bent rod, broken valves, snapped cam chain, or ventilated crankcases threw a hole that wasn't there when you bought the thing, you can't say I didn't warn you.

I can't write anymore, this...... I'll be back when I'm a little more composed. errrrr

Tony
 

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Tony, relax my friend. When you try and share your knowledge you need to understand that it just may be that the person you are helping really doesn't understand or know what they are dong/talking about. That's the purpose of helping someone. we appreciate your info and will do with it what we must but don't get upset with someone that is truely uninformed.
 

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i ran vp in a drz440 i had. ( 31.00 for 5 gal.) you may want to check out vp web site for info. as i understand it they have a differant standard than pump gas. a differant way of getting there octane rateing.color is additves.i bought 50 gal. of an oxegenated fuel that was pink. normal stuff i got was a bright yellow. if you get a 5 gal vp dump can white. vp fuel will not stain it. pump gas will turns it a dull yellow. i found a vp chat site along time ago.based out of texas.cant seem to be able to find it now..... you might look for it as well. good luck B) B)
 

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holy shot!! that ticeman is getting as sensitive as that short fused kook mixmaster or whatever his name is


he's right though

compression given with your piston is "static" compression, purely a ratio. dynamic (measured) or actual running compression is changed dramamatically with camshaft duration. a static compression that requires race fuel with a stock cam may only need high grade pump fuel when the dynamic compression is changed by a longer duration cam. i think i've heard about the intricate effects of cam and piston as a combo elsewhere on this site.

another reason to stay with a particular fuel is that jetting can change dramatically with oxygenate levels and specific gravity.

...................mixxer
 

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I'm not upset with anyone on this board. I didn't mean to belittle anyone, especially Rico, he's for the most part incredibly well informed and I think, from what I know of him on here, he's a great guy! I'm upset with the freakin idiots who put this info out into the public where it shouldn't be by using mass media forms. The magazines are the worse!!! These people take no responsibility for what they write sometimes and don't research anything. That's what makes me angry. These are the people that we trust to give us trustworthy, good, information and when they speak of things that they have no idea of what they can do, it's a wrong in my eyes and a retraction should be printed. Afterall, if it's in writing it must be true.

I have a friend that is a rocket scientist (no kidding) and he is a petrochemist specialist (REAL rocket fuel) and, he rides motorcycles. He is sooooo fed up with people that think they can dump two different gasolines together and get something they need or want. I've spent time with him and other engineers in the "gasoline" industry and they all laugh when they hear this wives tale.

It saddens me to see people believe what they read sometimes. Rico is the perfect example. I've seen things he has passed on to others that is sound as sound can be. I am really sorry Rico, I didn't want to embarass you at all. It's just that if, you don't know for 100% sure it's best to let someone else make the mistakes. Sorry, again.

To clear up a little misunderstanding about AV gas, it isn't good in anything that will rev more than 3 or 4000 rpm. It's designed to be run at a steady rpm level without sudden change. It's good for a motor that would have an automatic tranny as long as you're not in and out of the throttle a lot. Or something that is turbo charged or blown. It definately is not meant for ATV engines though and that is a FOR SURE!

"Mixxing" gasolines is very dangerous to engines. Especially when you "mix" unleaded and leaded fuels. Depending on some of the agents used to blend the fuels, this can make some very caustic compounds that are incredibly unstable and prone to detonation. And it gets worse when oxy leaded fuels are mixed with unleaded alcohol fuels. Anything that is aluminum is at severe risk. I've seen exhaust ports of engines that looked like they had been in acid baths and were only several hours old.

Sorry to ramble on like this but, it's a sore spot with me and I try and inform people of this possible (more than likely) danger to you and your machine.

Tony
 

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I'll give an example of what can happen.

From 1992-1998 Yamaha built a 4 cylinder snowmobile known as the V-Max 4, essentially 2 engines from a radically ported Banshee on a common crankcase. In the winter of 1995, some of the large snow belt metro areas decided to alleviate the areas of smog by using a MTBE based fuel. Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether is a fuel that carries about 12% oxygen, the downside is that when mixed with regular unleaded components, and sometimes leaded, it reacted in a way in a two stroke engine (mainly because of some oils' components) to cause detonation under the lightest of loads. I can't remember any winter season ever that all the snowmobile manufactures had so many engine failures. We were so consumed by engine problems we set aside the obvious and looked for the unconventional. It wasn't till we started noticing the failures always occurred by owners from Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit, and Milwaukee, mostly. These were the only cities in the snow belt that recieved these fuels.

We had one instance of engine failure that all four rods were bent, the crank twisted on every plane, and all four pistons had the domes squeezed down and the rings stuck. We would get engines back with broken rods and fractured cases. All because fuels were being mixed together that didn't have components that were compatible. In every one of these cases with MTBE based fuels, there was NO CARBON build-up in the engine anywhere. They were nearly as clean as an engine run on pure alcohol. But without the benefit of correct jetting. These failures weren't limited to the V-Max 4 either, it was the most expensive though and it wasn't a manufacturing defect causing the failures but, Yamaha bore the expense of replacement under warranty for those that were in warranty. $320 a cylinder. Times 4. Plus the labor. And the second failure was soon to come because nobody knew the exact cause. If sleds would have had steel fuel tanks, it would have been recognized instantly.

The machines that were used in and around the cities never experienced the problem. It was only the people that traveled to go riding. In short, a worse case scenario. Now, think of the people that dumped cans of de-icer in the fuel........

Tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Tony, that is great information with respect to the do's and don'ts of fueling. that is the kind of stuff everyone can use.

can you or anyone else give me a recommendation on the octane level that i should shop for to properly compliment my 13.8:1 piston and sparks drop-in cam? also... i am still wondering if that pink gas is really 110 sunoco.
anybody?

thanks,
jason
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
also... when i asked if anyone had experience blending, i meant "blending" as in a refinery environment. i appreciate all the help, but didn't really plan on mixing gas myself. good thing too... :D

thanks again!
 

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I run VP C14 in the Supermoto bike (14.2:1 comp), which is 110 octane. It's safe, stable, fuel that is most likely a little higher in octane than I would really need. My YSR is just over 14.5:1 compression and it works better with the same fuel. You want a fuel that is just on the edge of not having enough octane. The Honda's combustion chamber is a little more effecient at disipating heat than the Yamahas so you can run a slightly lower octane number and be fine.

Your other issue. That's something you should take up with the manufacture of the fuel. They may have changed something along the way and not made mention of it.

I have a friend that likes to play with additives all the time to keep the officials guessings, he puts scented additives in his fuel. Banana, strawberry, vanilla, stuff like that, funny huh?!

Tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
well... since my local fuel choices are 100 or 110, i will stick with the 110.

thanks again for the info Tony.

as for your friend who likes playing with scented additives...
i can't decide if that's "funny" haha or "funny" weird. :D
 

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Thanks Ticeman!!! This is the info that people need to here. I base my theroy on my 465ex stroker which I guess I should have said from the beginning. I really don't know if I was doing harm or not to my engine. But, that stroker seemed to take to the 50/50 ratio. Which I use high octane gas and vp. The stroker seemed to take to it very well. But, then again, I don't know what was going on inside.

Ticeman you said "I am really sorry Rico, I didn't want to embarass you at all"

You did nothing but inform me. I'll be the first person to admit when I'm wrong. So don't feel bad. How else am I supose to learn!!!!!!!!!! We are all here for the same reason. To learn about the 450R. So, thanks for the info. If we all were told the right info in the first place. Then we wouldn't be experimenting on things we really don't know. I trust your words and please don't give up on the people that really want to learn. Knowledge is power, and it also helps other people that need to be told what to do!!!

Rico
 

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[/QUOTE]i can't decide if that's "funny" haha or "funny" weird.
He's a little on the loony toon side of the spectrum :wacko: so I think it's funny haha.


Tony :D

Thanks Rico
 

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GR8 Stuff Tony, There are only a few with GR8 Knowledge and even fewer that listen to them!
My TRX Loves Race gas!
 
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