I guess it was my time - Crank Failure - Honda TRX Forums: Honda TRX 450R Forum
Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-11-2019, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
trx450r.org Moderator
 
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kaukauna, WI
Posts: 2,299
I guess it was my time - Crank Failure

Hi Guys,

Seems like the theme this week, but I change my oil last night and it was full of brass.

I tore the head and cyl off to find the rod standing straight up and not moving. The crank bearings seem tight and move smoothly, but the rod doesn't move on the crank.

In the past, I would just hand my motor to my sponsor and let him have his way with it but I haven't had this situation since I stopped racing. Sooooo, what direction do I move in? Replace the rod bearings? Replace the rod and crank bearings? Replace the whole crank and bearings?

I know to go with OEM bearings for both the rod and crank, but if I replace the whole crank, what direction do I go? OEM? CP? I'm thinking I want to stay stock stroke for reliability and I don't need the extra power anymore. I'm still in the low\mid 50's with pump gas so I'm happy with that.I've been out of the engine game too long and don't know the hot setup anymore. I have a few friends who are racing Pro and Pro-Am at the Nat's so I'm going to ask them too.


Thanks!

~ Gumby ~
WI Trail Patrol #1224
WI DNR ATV Safety Instructor

2006 450ER
1984 ATC110
1978 CB750K
1978 Express 50
No Wing...No prayer

Quote:
..go by the pants dyno..thats usually all that matters.
Gumby is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-11-2019, 06:21 PM
CJM
Truck Yea
 
CJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cental NJ
Posts: 5,237
Id just buy a hotrods crank or CP. OEM gets costly imho

-2004 450R. Far From Stock.. Sold, crank was going
-2006 450R. New WHIP..
-Do it right the first time, and you wont have a problem later. Being cheap or taking the easy way out only makes matters worse later.
-Your Backyard Mechanic Extraordinaire: Responsible for bringing you redneck, ingenious and often interesting ways how to fix things.
-You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the H*ll happened. Captain Phil Harris
CJM is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-11-2019, 06:45 PM
Cane Rider!
 
Thrown Stones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: FLA
Posts: 1,257
If you have your machine long enough, it’s bound to happen. You mentioned CP, are they making cranks for 450’s? The Hot Rod cranks have been good to me. Even the strokers.
Thrown Stones is offline  
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-11-2019, 07:07 PM
450R Rider
 
gboezio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Victoriaville, Qc
Posts: 2,076
Can't remember if you have a 04-05
Next build is Athena 100mm, JE 3 ring piston, STG 3 Hot Cams, OEM crank + woosner rod, welded, trued not balanced, My EFI system of course, but with a dual fuel option, a prototype porting of my own waaay different of what have been done, adjustable cam gear, 11,5 compression and many small tweaks.

2008 TRX 450ER XC racing
FMSQ # 281
gboezio is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-12-2019, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
trx450r.org Moderator
 
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kaukauna, WI
Posts: 2,299
I love that a few of us vets are still here!

It sounds weird since I've never met any of you, but I trust your opinions over what else is out there *cough* Facebook *cough*.

Millennium Tech is only about an hour from me and they've done great work in the past for me as far as cylinder services so I might give them a shot. Saves me having to ship a heavy a$$ crank somewhere.
@Thrown Stones, Their catalog has it listed and I always though Carillo was a stand up brand. https://cp-carrillo-catalog.cld.bz/C...t-Catalog/126/

Aftermarket cranks make me nervous, should they? RM has the HotRods rod, the entire crank with the rod, or the crank, rod, and gasket set. Everyone preaches about using the OEM Honda bearings for the crank so I don't think the Whole Kit is worth it.

So is it better to buy the rod and pay the $130 to have Millennium press it, true it, and weld it? Or is it worth paying pretty much the same price and just buying the whole assembly? How true are the Hot Rods Crank Assembly's?

~ Gumby ~
WI Trail Patrol #1224
WI DNR ATV Safety Instructor

2006 450ER
1984 ATC110
1978 CB750K
1978 Express 50
No Wing...No prayer

Quote:
..go by the pants dyno..thats usually all that matters.
Gumby is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-12-2019, 01:45 PM
Cane Rider!
 
Thrown Stones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: FLA
Posts: 1,257
When your not a Facebook user, these forums are all we have. I still didn’t see a crank in the catalog. I am missing a few brain cells. CP-Carillo are top notch. I guess you need to use what you’re comfortable with. I used a Crank Works, balanced Hot Rod stroker with oem bearings. Ran a big Web cam. Sucker was nasty. But I dropped a valve and ended that chapter. Started over with a new stroker Hot Rod crank, unbalanced and a early HRC cam. Still running today.
Thrown Stones is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-12-2019, 09:12 PM
CJM
Truck Yea
 
CJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cental NJ
Posts: 5,237
friend of mine had a balanced falicon crank, he seemed to like it till he chucked it out the front of the engine by drag racing and dropping a gear. falicon did warranty it tho..course he didnt say why it broke..


facebook is stupid, i keep one to be able to do certain stuff but i never understood the real point of it. forums like these are much better. sometimes i google looking for an answer, forum pops up and its been discussed and solution posted. facebook bah!

-2004 450R. Far From Stock.. Sold, crank was going
-2006 450R. New WHIP..
-Do it right the first time, and you wont have a problem later. Being cheap or taking the easy way out only makes matters worse later.
-Your Backyard Mechanic Extraordinaire: Responsible for bringing you redneck, ingenious and often interesting ways how to fix things.
-You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the H*ll happened. Captain Phil Harris
CJM is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-13-2019, 10:31 AM
Making HP ainít free. . .
 
hoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Farmington, MN
Posts: 3,907
Sorry to hear about the crank failure Gumby! And I share your thoughts about the forum.

It’s kind of a crap shoot for these cranks. I’ve ran the HR stroker unbalanced for many years but it just failed on me, fortunately I caught it before it was catastrophic. I sent it in to Crank Works and had them rebuild it and it took a TON of heavy metal to balance, it was over $100 in metal, which makes me wonder about the quality of the crank to begin with, but hey, it lasted many years even unbalanced. I just got that motor put back together this spring and it runs good. It’s a 501, 13:1, HC3, and a good head on it. Hoping it will last another 6-8 years.

In another motor I had a crack in the head that leaked coolant that sat on the piston, corroded the ring which seized to the piston and smoked my nice 100mm cylinder and the classic Venom piston that I found lol. I pulled that motor down and took the crank out and it still looks and feels great. It’s a OEM crank, 4.2 stroker with a Carrillo that I had CW build and I am very happy with it. But not a ton of run time on that motor over the few years it’s been together. I’m hoping I can get it put back together in a couple days here.

I also just had CW do a OEM Crank, stock stroker with a Carrillo. They just look so nice when they come back from CW. All the surfaces are cleaned up, nice welds, balanced, etc., they just look and feel nice. I just dropped that crank in the cases the other night for a 480 build so no run time on it yet.

There is a point to these rambling stories lol! I’ve had good success with CW in my builds and others and I trust them. Even though I have had good success with them I am slightly tempted to try a crank from JSD Machine Works. They seem to have fair prices and I like their website, but I have not seen any feedback on them. Maybe you should be the guinea pig Gumby!!! Lol!
hoser is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-13-2019, 10:32 AM
Making HP ainít free. . .
 
hoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Farmington, MN
Posts: 3,907
I haven’t heard anything about CP cranks for our machines.
hoser is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-13-2019, 01:00 PM
CJM
Truck Yea
 
CJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cental NJ
Posts: 5,237
Im just waiting for my day. Knowing my luck it will be while im miles from home at the dunes or somewhere and Ill need to be towed back. I have a nice 470 kit ive hesitated to put on for this reason..

-2004 450R. Far From Stock.. Sold, crank was going
-2006 450R. New WHIP..
-Do it right the first time, and you wont have a problem later. Being cheap or taking the easy way out only makes matters worse later.
-Your Backyard Mechanic Extraordinaire: Responsible for bringing you redneck, ingenious and often interesting ways how to fix things.
-You can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the H*ll happened. Captain Phil Harris

Last edited by CJM; 07-13-2019 at 01:02 PM.
CJM is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-14-2019, 10:07 AM
450R Rider
 
gboezio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Victoriaville, Qc
Posts: 2,076
One of my friend has a YFZ450, he beat the **** out of it racing XC for 4 years and brought it to me for a preventive overhaul, found a nice and tight Hot Rods crank welded inside, he still had me to install a failed OEM with a new Wossner pressed on, welded and trued, half season all clear. Maybe the need to be welded

2008 TRX 450ER XC racing
FMSQ # 281
gboezio is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-14-2019, 02:47 PM
Making HP ainít free. . .
 
hoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Farmington, MN
Posts: 3,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJM View Post
Im just waiting for my day. Knowing my luck it will be while im miles from home at the dunes or somewhere and Ill need to be towed back. I have a nice 470 kit ive hesitated to put on for this reason..
Yup, have had that happen before! Made a tow strap out of sticks to get towed back to camp lol. That is hard to put nice new parts on a bottom end that you donít totally trust.
hoser is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-14-2019, 02:49 PM
Making HP ainít free. . .
 
hoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Farmington, MN
Posts: 3,907
I agree, I think the welding makes them more durable. But, welded cranks fail too.
hoser is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-15-2019, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
trx450r.org Moderator
 
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kaukauna, WI
Posts: 2,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrown Stones View Post
... I still didnít see a crank in the catalog. I am missing a few brain cells. CP-Carillo are top notch.
I guess that one is my bad. They do Rods, but not complete cranks. For some reason, my brain didn't differentiate between the two.

I'm a firm believer in "When it breaks, it's an opportunity to upgrade!". So, with that being said, what's involved in stroking it? Are there case modifications that need to be made? Does it kill longevity and reliability?

Millennium (https://www.millennium-tech.net/) will do the press, true and weld for $115 and with a $150 HR rod. A CP rod is almost $300 so if HR is quality, I'll save myself $150. OEM Honda crank is $380.

CrankWorks is in the ballpark, but shipping from WI to AZ would probably put me way over the mark.

I just did a top end this last winter as preventative maintenance so it only has 20 hours on it. I'll just re-ring it and run that. One of these years, it's going to be a 480.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Anything else to think about while I'm in there?

~ Gumby ~
WI Trail Patrol #1224
WI DNR ATV Safety Instructor

2006 450ER
1984 ATC110
1978 CB750K
1978 Express 50
No Wing...No prayer

Quote:
..go by the pants dyno..thats usually all that matters.
Gumby is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Unread 07-15-2019, 11:50 AM
Making HP ainít free. . .
 
hoser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Farmington, MN
Posts: 3,907
I’m of the same mind, if it breaks, make it better lol.

I’ve had Millennium do lots of cylinders and even some head repair and misc. things, but I’ve never had them do any crank services. I’m curious to see how they hold up. They definitely seem to have the equipment to do a good job, so I imagine they could build a good crank.

It really depends on what size stroker you want to do as to how much is involved. A 3mm short rod will drop in, no mods needed and you can use any shelf piston but it will increase your compression roughly 0.4:1. Once you start veering from that, things get complicated. If you want a long rod stroker you have to find a piston that has a higher compression height. It used to be fairly easy to find a 3mm long rod stroker piston, but I looked high and low last fall and I couldn’t find one. @hawk-trx and I talked about getting another guy to do a buy-in on four stroker-pistons last fall, he seemed to lose interest, and I only wanted 2, so I wasn’t about to drop $1200 for 4 pistons when I only needed two. I called around and nobody else had them. Seems odd because it is a great stroker motor. If you want a long rod stroker the 4.2 mil stroker is a good option, but that gets pricy, needs case mods, rod mods, and a little work on the small end of the rod for the CRF piston to work properly, and you have to have the small end bushed down to 19mm and use a CRF piston. Morgan says the small end bushing doesn’t last, but mine is still holding up.

Trying to find new stroker combinations is fun, but it takes a ton of time to look up rod lengths, compression heights on pistons, and then doing all the math, but the 4.2 mil is a proven setup. My 4.2 stroker is going back together as a 575, so we’ll see how much longer it lasts lol.

If you are wanting to reuse your top-end you really only have two options, SS, or 3mm stroker.

Sorry for the long winded posts, it’s just fun to actually talk some tech!!!
hoser is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Honda TRX Forums: Honda TRX 450R Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in













Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome