this season my own TRX will be a pump gas setup with stock valve sizes.....

i've made the most power with high compression and +1 valves in all 4 corners.... and at the prodding of my better half, tress... "i've".... LOL.. decided to see how well things run without the added expense of bigger valves and race fuel compression ratios....

so.... while i was at it on the semi-budget minded build.... i decided to test all 3 available Hot Cams... Stage 1...Stage 2...and Stage 3.... for a good comparison of the power characteristics of those cams on the same bike and on the same dyno , on the same day......

i wish Hot Cams didn't lable the cams as Stages.... it makes it sounds like each step makes the last one insignificant.... when they are actually focused for different uses...

the Stage 1 should be called something like Torque Master or Earth Mover.... LOL.... i use it in my CRF450x Bike... and it feels like the engine has 100cc's more than it does... instant response... almost pre-emptive response....and it pulls like a freight train.... it has to be THE most underrated cam in the industry... for stock displacement machines and Woods to MX riding, nothing pulls off the bottom to mid like this cam does....

the Stage 2 should be called something like Superman...LOL.... because it has no weaknesses... it pulls the broadest power curve ...and no matter what you plan on doing, you wont really have the wrong cam with the Stage 2

the Stage 3.... i have no idea what to call it... it pulls the farthest on top end.... but you have to give up something to get something here....

thanx to site sponsor Paul @ Woodward's Specialties for the killer prices and service on the Hot Cams!!

so...on to the Graphs...

Stage 1... Black Lines:
rules the bottom end with authority until 6600 RPM where the S2 matches it...and the S3 doesn't match it until 8000 RPM... if you "Gun & Run" from exiting lots of corners in your riding type.. this cam pulls brutally strong.... the earliest\ most torque ... and the most roll off after the power peak

Stage 2...Blue Lines:
super wide power curve... not as much early torque as the S1.... not as much in the overrev as the S3... but pretty darn close on both counts...

Stage 3.... Red Lines:
the most peak HP... the most power from peak to the rev limiter... but it also gives up the most bottom end to do it

i tested the cams in this order...S1...S3...S2... since i planned on leaving the S2 in at the end of it all...and wasn't going to loctite the cam bolts in place until the end of the testing....

BUT... i have to say.... i a little bit disappointed that i didn't run the S1 last and leave it in the TRX... i wouldn't take the S1 out of my CRFX for anything....!

remember... you'll have the fastest setup for your riding if you setup the power curve to match your type of riding\use....

hope the graphs help some of you in your cam selection


Click to view attachment


Click to view attachment

What a great post!!!!!!!! Excellent work! I just installed an HRC cam in my 07 and I'm very pleased. I've been told that it is very close to the stage 1 cam. Me likey!

john, awesome comparison. cant beat venom for sharing info. much appreciated.

its hard to make a decision on a cam when you see it that way.

i am going nuts waiting to get to the dyno. 2 1/2 weeks and counting down.

correct... the 06 & up HRC cam is very similar to the S1... excellent cam...!

as always... you guys are more than welcome for the info.....

Thanks for that mixxer. Very informative. Very straight forward. Very straight up.

Is there anything like this posted with a stock bore setup? Would you predict the comparisons to be similar in a stockbore/stroke configuration mixxer?

I ran a stage 2 on my basic stock bore build and will be running it on my high comp. worked head build as well. I was toying with the idea of a HC3 but that just went out the door... for now...

Eric

the cams will have largely the same effect on a 450cc powerband.... the differences will be slightly exaggerated with a bigger loss of bottom end on the S3....

conversely...if the engine was bigger yet, the S1 would have more roll off of power on the top end...

Thats some pretty close numbers, great info!! I'm putting that stg 3 in stephs this week...

im thinkinf about the stg1 now lol thanks for info really cool

Whew, lots of time here and we thank you for your efforts and willingnes to openly share your info John.

I like the stage 2 in that group. Like you said though, it depends on what your doing.

I so agree on the naming of the cams. It just makes them sound like stage 1 is better than stock, than stage 2 is better than stage1, and stage 3 is better than everything. It comes down to terrain and riding style.

Id still like to see the stage 1 retarded....no joke. Throw in a handful of degrees and see what happens. It may make you like it over the stage 2, who knows.....

They really did a great job R&D'ing these cams and really getting them to do what they do. Its not like they made one cam and then made the same kinda powerband but just more power....no they made it a point to make power on the bottom to mid, then a spread mid, then a mid to top. Great selection for your riding style.

it's about time, nick!!

you come on over Gar...and you can run the dyno with any amount of cam degreeing change you want!! open invitation.... :)

Excellent info as always John...

I had no idea that the 06HRC cam was comparable to the Stage 1. I ran that in my bike for a long time and always felt like it had pretty decent top end pull. Maybe I was giving up a length or two with this cam????

so how do you think my 480 set up would fair if i take the stage 3 out and put the stage 2 in
bw high comp piston
venom ported head
42 fcr carb
and good ole pulse charger
shes only ridden at the dunes

Hey do you guys do any street bike machine work? I tossing the idea around of putting a big bore kit in my vtx 1800. It would have to be resleeved to 4 1/8'" from the stock (I think is around 4")

Yeah wish I would have been armed with this a few months ago. I've got a S3 in my Venom pump gasser 480. It's tremendously faster than it was stock, but I can definately tell it's a little soft down low. I get pulled from a dig by stock bore bikes and have to use every bit of space to reel them in. I'm seriously thinking about switching from this S3 to a S2 after looking at those graphs. If anyone in here has an S2 and wants to try an S3 pm me and we can work something out.

How would you compare the the HRC 04-05 cam to the Hot cams which one.

I would have to say its more like the stage 3 than the 1 or 2.

great information, thanks, jerod

Great info. Nice layout and easy to read. Thanks for sharing.

I'll take the Stage 2. It gives up nothing to the Stage 3 until around 9k rpm. I think I am going to put it back in over my stage 3.

let's see:

nope , i don't do street bikes.... sorry...

my own personal preference in powerbands is the stage 2.... or stage 1 for my CRFx dirt bike....

the 04-05 HRC cam makes more top end and less bottom end than the HC S3....

Oh well. Still a great post! LOL!

im usually good at "feeling" any changes in power when i swap something out. i took out a stage 3 and put the 208 in and in a drag race could not tell at all, but on my practice track i did notice a little better throttle response and i also noticed it did come on a little earlier but not much. i think peak is the same with a hair more torque that carries a little longer. but this is my opinion from the "butt dyno"

i have always wondered what they would do on the dyno though. if they are close i dont think it would be worth the money to get the web and then buy springs for minimum results. i was suprised to see the results of this test and have to say stage 2 is pretty good!! very good info thats helped alot of people out, thank you, jerod

I agree with this statement 100%. Or, take the Stage 2 and degree it in for more bottom end for those that need it or go the other way to kick the Stage 3's butt.

I thought of this about six months ago when everyone was having a yard sale on Stage II cams cause the Stage III was just released.

Just my opinion.

there are 2 versions of the 208....

a RBC\ reduced base circle version that has harsh velocities that beat your valvetrain to death for a ~ 1.5 HP gain over the S3

and a FBC... full base circle version that doesn't beat your valvetran to death.... and works about the same as a hot cam stg 2..

I have seen dyno's from a high 50's stockbore comparing the FBC and RBC 208 and the Stage 3. The stage 3 hands down comes on the earliest, next the FBC and then the RBC, that is also how they stack up on peak power also with the RBC easily winning.

I have heard other shops claim that with their porting that the RBC will make like at least 2 HP over the FBC and the stage 3. That may be true and thats fine, not knocking it. Im guessing with super top end biased flow work, its right on the money.

In my own personal test the FBC 208 made 57.7 compared to 56.2 for a HC 2. IMO the Stage 3 will fall in between them but peak wise it will be closer to the FBC 208.

IMO also the gen 1 HRC cam will suffer on the bottom end but peak out in between the Stage 3 and the FBC 208. An awesome cam for under 400 lift. I have never got along witht he HC3 but Im trying to change that on my next dyno trip.

Also thanks again for another test, its funny how it never gets old comparing these cams.

How about the curve? Does it just peak 1.5hp higher or does it beat it most of the way up the curve?

Thanks for the info.

and thank you very much for adding in some detailed testing results.... good stuff...

jebbin...

both gary and i had tested with web cams in 04 when the trx450r first came out, and from our original testing...along with the fact that you can actually hear how much harsher the valvetrain is pounding.... we quickly lost interest...

you're going to have to do some research on your own on that one.... 100% of the failed valvetrains i have dealt with have had web cams in them.... not 99%.... 100%....


and it has been that same way for decades.....


once a cam's profile becomes harsh enough to be a liability to valvetrain \ engine life.... my interest goes to less than zero....


sorry...


maybe some of miller's more recent testing will be the info you are looking for

i agree with mixxer and soyo on the web.

the cost to change from a hc2 or hc3 to a 208 is enough to sway me.

not to mention the possible problems it could lead to.

i have read lots of posts saying a hc3 has no personality or feel. uhhh...... who cares IMO.... it pulls and revs out just fine.

i want it to be fast, not feel fast. the 208 does come on much harder after 6500. at least from all the runs i have seen. thats why it feels faster. mind you.......... i have never rode one that has a 208 in it. just what i have read.

anyone who can feel 1 hp is a better man than me.

if the hc3 loses any bottom to a hc2, i cant tell it. mine pulls just as hard with a hc3 as a hc2, and climbs to the limiter with a dyna box. revs out much better. the hc2 leveled off before the limiter.

just my experience. i'll have some dyno runs to add in exactly 2 weeks from today.

mixxer do you have any idea what the dyno comparison of a stage 1 to an 06 stock cam would be? just out of curiosity

Well put Steve.

When Dan had sent me that 550 setup, he had a 208 in it. I went out and did some riding and the engine wasnt impressing me.

When I removed the 208 and put in the little johnson it felt a little better for sure. So I left the johnson in there. Now that same 208 tore up another setup and so did 2 729's. After I personally saw that, I stopped using Web all together. I knew I could make power with other setups and I did.

Belive it or not, the Mysto was the most reliable of the big 3 offered. They say its HUGE and what not, but it was actually the least harsh on the valve train.

the stock cam in any of the trx's is a power killer..... like stuffing a sock in your exhaust.... the stage 1 is one of the most powerful torque cams available.... the stock cams are the lowest power output possible...

well put... :)

so is the stage 3 cam more for the big bores or does it work well with a modified stockbore 14 to 1? ever since i owned my quad i have been running the stage 2 hotcam and have always loved it. now i have gotten use to it and want some more power. how does the stage 2 cam feel after you have the head ported and flowed? is it a night and day difference? cause thats my next big step. i couldn't imagine going from 40 to 41 hp all the way to the upper 50's in hp. man it would be tough to hang on. but after awhile i would get bored and want more. lol this stuff is very addicting.

thanks guys

i would recommend leaving the hc2 in there. use your money to get the port work.

if your using a stock box and rev limit, the hc2 is best.

i had one before going to dyna box. pulled strong to rev limit. making mid 50's.

with the raised rev limit, the hc2 leveled off before the new limit. the hc3 goes strong to the raised limit.

IMO........ the reason a hc3 is recommended for a big bores is because the hp and torque you give up down low can be made up by the extra displacement.

a hc3 in a stock bore with stock rev limit could possibly cost you a small amount of power on top. and some noticeable torque down low.
add valve springs and a dyna or vortex box to the stock bore, then you would see the gains of the hc3.

thats just what i think. lol

^^^^perfect advice^^^ thanks for the input

very interesting info. thanks everyone!

is that a crf450 frame with a trx450 swinger?

jason,

the 02 crf cams had the most radical cams of any that honda put in the 450's.... thier specs, loss of low end, and increase of top end is why honda has went through several generations of cam profiles since then...in an effort to widen the power and torque curves....

also... your current state of mods...combined with a stock TRX exhaust.... will seriously limit any cams power changing potential....

how does the 02 crf stack up to the stg 1,2,3 cams? I have been thinking for switching to the stg3 from the 02crf, I have a 501. your piston and exhaust, ported head with ti intakes and +1 ex valves

02CRF tests between the S1 and S2 cams.... the specs seem more radical... but that's where it tests at for me

i bought one...tested it against the S2 2 years or so ago... and then gave it away

Good to know thanks, i will now order a stg3

If anyone is interested, I have a stage 2 that I am wanting to trade for a stage 3...


http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?sho...mp;#entry650462

if i didn't need a S3 for occasional testing.... i'd trade you right now... :)

Really? I've heard that every week for about a year now

hey ..... any chance i could "borrow" back that CRF cam steph's been running?? i like to keep a supply of test units....

steph.... sell your gray pipe to nick's bro.... you need a black one....

of course

so... where are you on selling nick's bro the pipe....