Here are the DASA dyno runs, I have the venom runs at home will get them ASAP


I have been messing with my 501 for a couple of years now I have tried 3 different heads from 3 different buiders and kind of hit a point where I just could not get anymore out of it, so since I love nothing more than to tinker and mess with my bike I decided to go with my gut and try a knew head from DASA. I had some issues with my first build from dasa so I ended up sending them the whole motor which they went through completely and sent back to me assembed from top to bottom thanks for the hook up on that issue DASA . Anyways I will get right to the point I kept everything the same on both builds same cam, carb, pipe, ect.... nothing changed on this bike but the head, nothing.

My old runs on the 501 with the venom head I felt yielded good results I ended up with a best of 58.25 HP and 38.40 ft TQ this bike has always been fast and treated me good so I really did not have any complaints I just wanted more. With the dasa head and a couple thousand dollars later I ended up with 59.26 HP and 37.92 Ft TQ. In my book I would consider this a wash I think there has been alot of BS about heads lately, and I hope my money and time can help a few others in there decisions. I am not extremely happy with the results, I did spend alot of money to do this testing, but I have to consider how much HP costs at this stage in the game In my opinon Jon and Dan both do great work and should be commended.

Thanks KBR for the hook up on dyno time and thanks Dan (DASA) for the help with motor you guys have been great.

cool, and this with that lectron? I cant wait to see the sheet I hope you get them in rpm

thanks for the sharing!

Nice comparison...and sorry you aren't the happiest with the results. More HP...but less torque...

What kind of head was this from DASA?

Chad you know we wont allow advertising and promoting of your product unless your a sponsor!

Lets keep this thread clean and remember what the focus is here

Carry on gentlemen.

what piston and which web?

ahhh yes, very good.

I'll let these two builders explain why this 501 is under 60hp...

maybe both heads were RECREATIONAL heads.... that would explain his costs though...


YEP, carry on!

Thank you very much for sharing that and great info and advice for others. It goes to show you there are many shops and builders that do great work. Not always do we hear the positive or the negative about all of them.

I try and keep my opinions independent and non biased as best I can, as I believe it is the best stance for me to take as a member of the site management.

In spite of that there is a lot of unfair crap posted around the site about all Engine builders. There have been failures and unlived up to expectations from all engine builders. It happens, You aren't always going to hit a home run, or even a double for that matter.

There has also been great success stories from all builders. What's messed up is when only one aspect/story is thrown around continuosly. There are plenty of stories of success from all builders and very few people hop in the thread to congradulate, however whenever there is a negative story everyone especially haters hop in and play it up to no end.

What I appreciate and what is good for the site is when people are happy with their build and members grats them regardless of the builder. Likeswise when someone has a not so successful story, that people are not so vendictive and completely negative.

OP It's nice to see that you have good things to say about both of your builders and it appears you have no hidden agenda. I appreciate the positive thread.

Ill get the runs up today. We had to use my old school back up laptop and i had to go buy floppy discs, you can get tham at Staples, I was thinking I was going to have to go to the good will store...lol
I think its also important to explain that the Venom build was Hot Cam stage 3 straight up, and the DASA build was the big dog super fancy Web custom cam , degreed in by Dan himself, and the head was milled and everything. We did it with the web on the Venom head too.
I have seen this time and time again and its nice to finally have the chance to see it in a direct comparison with exact same parts and even a engine that was Dasa assembeled to boot.

Lets keep this postive...

Lectron carb, 14.25:1 CP piston, web cam. Niether of these were "rec heads" I know I probably will not get the best head either one had to offer but I did get the best they would sell me full drag port I hope.



"ahhh yes, very good.

I'll let these two builders explain why this 501 is under 60hp...

maybe both heads were RECREATIONAL heads.... that would explain his costs though...


YEP, carry on!"



Very fast as far as your comment on the 60 HP I can tell you straight up that 60 HP on KBR's dyno is hard to do I don't believe there is very many 450 based bikes that have done it, (correct me if I am wrong Kam) what I am saying is 59.26 HP is actually not bad.

Thanks for the comparison, we all know theres lots of time n money put forth to do this stuff , and its appreciated...

its my favorite section on this forum.

I have seen and rode this bike it ran well with the venom head. I only got to see it run a few times with the old dasa head it looked like it ran strong as well. The bike is no slouch by any means. I can't wait to get mine back up and running so me and smee can race the hill again.

I apologize to you. I didn't mean to imply to you that you didn't have a stout build.... YOU DO!!!!

I would think that a 501 should, in all cases, with the mods identified, be over 60...

In either case, both of your setups from your testing seem to equate...

My original post is missing.... ZIPS felt my original post was not topic and should be hidden... I understand that.. I'm just saying that I don't believe you've reached 'the goal' for head work...

That's kewl, thanks for sharing. Good luck.

this maybe out of place and can be deleted if its out of liine...

Chad why not port a super head and sen it too him im sure they would be glad to post results for ya.. kinda put ur money where ur mouth is..

Thanks for posting Smee.

While reading your initial post, I was thinking to myself that both builds pulled excellent #'s on the KBR rollers!!

But I'm with ya. Gaining roughly 1hp but giving up 1 ft/lb is a wash in my book...
So I'd be alittle bummed also after spending all the extra moolah just to find that out.

Anyways, enjoy it, I'm sure it's a runner!

Later- Kris

hey jim. I would be willing to talk to smee23 about it offline, but I can respect what ZIPS was saying...

I would love to talk very fast but my head testing day's are over I don't have the money to support this addiction anymore. Thanks for all the positive comments guys I was hoping to keep this thread clean I am dissapointed in the results but the bike run's hard and I knew going into it I might not get much out of it. to both builders in my opinion my bike does run great.

he said freee...

Smee....

congrats on your build.... I dont care what Chad says... almost 60/40 on Kams dyno IS a stout machine...... and I commend you on this thread and honest conclusion....... enjoy your build....

Com'on Greg,.... VVVVVVVV I already said his 59hp build was stout.....

Give it a rest Chad.....

you have already said enough in this thread..... take a break



back to the topic.....a great comparison and quality build by Smee....

LOL.... ok whatever you want...

Great info, thanx for sharing.

I had a lot of fun watching the dyno runs with Smee. Thanks Kam and Marty, and I wish I could have done more to fix your bum laptop. LOL! Anyway the best way to see the results is going to be with Smee's bike fully broken in and running up our hill against mx333. I can't wait to see this action go down. Get er' done Skyler! Sweet machine Smee, I can't wait to see what 1+ hp will do on the hill against Skyler and Jade.

maybe with 1 more hp we will be closer to me

maybe with 60 less pounds he'd beat you?
Seth, tell me that run number of the 58.25 if you can....

I have it at home Kam I will get the number off it and let you know I can't get it till after work.

Personally, I'd rather have the TQ setup.... TQ wins races... one foot # doesn't sound like much difference, but when you spread that out across the rpm range, its enough to get the quad to cross the line first...

the dyno test will reveal the tq range advantage throughout... until then, all that can be compared is simply peak...

very strong numbers out of both builds for kams dyno...I know its a heartbreaker and if i remember reads a few less than the dyno i usually went on out here in colorado... that 59 horse would be well into the 60s at our dynojet out here

Kam...pick up your damn phone LOL...i have money for you!

Kam said to send the funds to me and everything is cool Jason.....

Smee, great results and a great comparison test. We appreciate you taking your time to post them. Its a ton of money to comapre stuff, TONS. People dont realize how many hard earned dollars go into these expensive parts.

Well thanks again for sharing.

Rider weight from me to him is almost identical i would like to get his and my bike on the scales to see how much lighter mine is for sure

seth......... thats some good info.

stout machine for sure.

nice presentation as well.

i have told u guys time after time'' venom and dasa are good, but if you want more bang for your buck, you got to send your head to CT ' allen over there nows his stuff and with your same combo you would be in the mid 60s on your hp. ive seen there stuff run, and there bikes are dang fast.

Hobo had a ct head and now has a re head and his re combo is alot faster from what i have been told than his ct.

You've also got to remember we're at 4500ft. elevation. He might hit mid 60's at sea level but probably not here.

Actually.... although this is going to sound as if I am addressing towards Chad...... which I am not at this time..... just using his post...

I prefer HP over TQ... I dont believe for one second that TQ wins races...and HP does not.... TQ is merely an amount of power derived below the 5252rpm mark........ and I dont know about some of you....but I for one never let my engine fall below that RPM when drag racing... if so, Ill grab another gear......now trail riding or dune riding or even play riding is a different story....but RACING....is RACING....

I know this is a debate.... but since I have owned a gaggle of gas powered machines with high HP numbers... and only one Diesel powered machine with a TON of Torque......here is my personal observation...... it is Torque that moves a HEAVY LOAD..... using relatively low RPM... but it is HP, that gets my vehicles down the track in a HURRY......hence the reason why almost every faction of racing talks about the HP of a certain vehicle...but rarely the TQ values....

Line up a 6.6 Duramax K2500HD...w/tuner and almost 900 ft lbs of torque....against a 6.0 K2500HD w/about HALF the TQ..(stock except muffler).... and watch which one can win in a drag race.....

one can TOW more.... but one can get down the track QUICKER....

I already know the answer......I lost....lol

weight does not really matter to me Skylar you are still faster and I don't see that changing anytime soon I will still race you all day though I just need a headstart

if you are running 900hp your torque went up also. I guess I dont see the comparison.

You've also got to remember we're at 4500ft. elevation. He might hit mid 60's at sea level but probably not here.
[/quote]


Mid 60's are still coming Jon let's not give up just yet .

All Hail CT!! lol

That's a pretty bold statement on the claims of mid 60's with a CT head and all else being equal...

But I will have to respectfully disagree.

Kris

Sweet! Good to hear you're not giving up on the quest!

Greg, this is one of the few times I will have to disagree with you also, lol.

In our drag cars, for every 1/10 of a second we pickup in our 60' times, it's equates to roughly 2/10ths quicker e.t. on the big end... It's much more difficult in my experience to pick up that tenth or two with top end hp and higher mph trap speeds...

With all else being equal, weight, traction, etc, the major factor in quicker short times (elapsed time interval over the first 60') is TORQUE!!
I feel the same principles apply when drag racing atv's, especially in power robbing sand. I'll always take 1 ft/lb of torque over 1 hp anyday, hell, possibly over 2 hp!

Carry on!

Kris

Kris...

let me just ask some questions...


what kind of HP vs TQ is your vehicle putting out?

is it GAS, Alcohol, naturally aspirated, Diesel, Methanol, ETC?

have you ever thought about putting a HIGH TORQUE diesel engine in your drag car?




just a thought.... continue....




also.....another thing to consider.... since it applies to my inability to drag race worth a damn... lol

but sometimes, if you base your race vehicle on torque.... you need to ensure you have the correct setup.... tires/traction, gearing, shifting, etc..... cuzz if you screw up the launch... your just about done...

but if you base your race vehicle on HP...... you can sometimes make up for a bad launch...by running the person down on the far end......HP = Speed..... at least this is what I believe.....



your turn Kris....lol

i dont know the right answer........... but...

my experience with torque and hp is that hp is faster for my situation.

i used to gear way down and run hillclimbs in 2nd gear. took off in 2nd as well.

a fellow climber recommended i gear up and run first gear to get the engine revving faster and higher in the rpm's.

all i can say is that i run much better times.

torque or hp...... its fast either way. but for me, a little faster using the hp on top.

JMO

we're getting off track here.......

find me a thread that does'nt. LOL

Yes...and I apologize to Smee...

I just thought since there was basically a 'wash' in performance.. due to one being slightly better in HP...and the other slightly better in TQ.... that this topic was 'somewhat' useful.....

^ I agree ^

based on the output numbers you listed.....60/42 SHOULD win out every day and twice on tuesday against 60/36...

cuzz you are listing EQUAL HP numbers...with an increased TQ numbers.....

but...what if you tookd the 6ft lbs of TQ you added to the first machine...and replaced them with 6HP to the second...

60/42 vs 66/36....... now which would win?

my money is on the 66/36.... and again.... I agree on your HP calculations.....but again, I prefer my torque ABOVE the 5252 rpm mark where my engine actually runs at..... which as you know... increases the HP output using the same formula... if the HP was increased BELOW the 5252rpm mark...then the Torque factor is greater...... I simply prefer the higher rpm, HP number...cuzz this is where MY engine is running at down the drag strip.... jmho.....

horsepower and torque are the same thing...merely mathmatical equations of each other at a certain RPM...I think what is being missed in this conversation is at what part of the powerband these measurements are being taken here....you could have two 450 motors both making peak torque the exact same but one might be doing it at 8000rpms while the other down near 5000 rpms...of course anybody that does understand this knows based off the math that the quad making it at 8000rpms will have a far higher peak horsepower...anyway you look at it without graphs your kinda fighting a mute point when your saying you would trade one for the other...what if the runs with 1lb higher torque fall off after 9000rpms so bad that the end result is a 15 horse loss near redine...or what if the bike with 1 peak horse higher is a dog until it hits halfway through the powerband like a two stroke....

ive seen plenty of 80 horse banshees get eaten up in a short distance by a 60 horse but torquey 450...but let em stretch there legs and its a role reversial...graphs tell the best story...

as for if i took my own power chart and had to increase it by a number one somewhere i personally think i would take 1 footlb of torque at 6000rpms over 1 horse at 10000rpms..but thats because it would suit me better....

carry on! :-)

i think we typed at the same time but your onto what i was saying fo sho...