I wanted to make sure that John got a proper thank you in his own section here. It is well known that my previous build of mismatched parts put together and selected by me was a torquey motor that made good power, but after the addition of all the right components that John suggested, the 511 is now what it should have been in the first place. John has done a tremendous omount of R & D to make sure all the parts, porting, piston, pipes, work togther as a package. It shows too. The addition of the right intake, carb and pipe added a solid 6 hp to my 511 and carries the powerband out VERY wide.

So, Thanks a TON, John/Mixxer/Venom! You certainly know what you are doing with engines and I got exactly what I was wanting out of this motor - FINALLY!

A complete list of mods:

2006 TRX450ER - 511 cc's
Venom Porting and Kibblewhite +1 valvetrain
Venom 14.25:1 Piston
Venom Modified ESR Intake
Venom Modified 43mm FCR Carb
Early HRC Cam
Venom Exhaust
HotRods +3 Stroker
MaxPower Ice Cube 100mm Cylinder


Disregard the 551 on the dyno sheet - they mistyped the file name.

Click to view attachment

geez 38 ft lbs of torque, now thats where its at!! congrats

Wow!! Congrats Chuck for a great build. That is going to be a handful with the stock swinger, lol.

Nice Chuck! Looks like the injection of Venom paid off! I am guessing my build will be less HP/torque than that, I think the only difference between our builds will be I will only have a 42 mil carb, stock intake for now, hot cams stg III, and a Dasa exhaust. Once I get my engine from KBR sometime next week, and break it in then get it to the Dyno, I will definately be posting he results, should be a interesting comparison, and may reveal the benifits of a larger carb, and the ESR intake...... I will be taking my bike to Pure Evil here in Vegas to get it dynoed. I haven't heard much about them on the org, not sure if their dyno is stingy, or loving........ Oh yeah curious to what your jetting ended up at??

Grey............

your stage 3 may make up the difference between the intake setup, not sure that would be a good comparison because that early HRC makes some good power, but teh stage 3 was specifically designed for the bigbore stroker setup

cant wait to see those results

I was told that the stock boot and box was the best setup for the 06. Even with the larger carb. KBR has my carb now and its being taken to a 42 also. Wondering if going to 43.5 is worth the extra $150.

nice numbers chuck!
is that esr of yours shortened?

Some quick answers. The main ended up as a 190, 45 pilot, 2 turns out. I can't say if the 43 is gonna make a ton more than a 42. For the extra $150, it's just eeking the last 1/2 hp out IMO.

I don't know if the ESR is shortened. Maybe if somebody measures an unmodified one I can compare.

I like the way the HRC cam feels. It will stay in. Just a personal preference.

190? holy schnizzle
is that cuz the carb is bigger or what?

Nice runs Chuck! Way to go!



You're gonna freak on your first dune trip!

Very nice Numbers. Congrats on your build!

Looks like sum nice numbers

Please don't take my comment as criticism cause it's not, just curious....

For all the motor and stuff done shouldn't it be making more power? Or maybe is it a stingy dyno?

ya the carb plays a big role here....mine ended up after dyno w/ a 205 main

nice numbers. where can you get the cylinder from? everywhere i have looked it comes as a kit.

he did have the kit ib the beginning, i dk if anyone has succeeded in buying just a cyl. from them, they really stick to their guns with that stuff.

As maxpower has told me several times " we don't sell aftermarket parts" "we sell complete kits only". Heck, they wouldn't even sell me a 99mm head gasket! I ended up spending $50 to have one one 2 day'd from the west coast, maxpower is only 45mins away from me.

I'll only say this.

I've been on that dyno three times now. My stock motor + HRC header + White Bros. E2 + HotCam 2 pulled 47.59 hp. Good baseline reference that shows the dyno is on the average to slightly below average as far as readings.

My 477 with the only change being porting and a 99 mm 14:1 piston pulled 54.02 hp. Everybody dogged that build, but c'mon, I got almost 7 hp out of 29cc's and 2 points compression. Nothing else was changed. Where are all the other HotCam Stage 2, stock carb, HRC header builds at 54 hp? It's only recently that a very few engines have posted big numbers and with the exception of 1 or 2, all the others have used much bigger cams.

Now, my 511 is at 61.5 hp and 38 ft-lbs of tq using a Honda cam. Still some say that's not enough. I would agree if I was running a Web 493 or a 208, but I'm not. I can run this thing till the fat lady sings and don't have to worry about dropping a valve or anything else like that.

AND - I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is that the MOST power they have seen on ANY 450 non-power adder builds is 66 - 67 hp on a couple different 550 cc motors. KMS builds some fast shiite. If it was easy to pull big numbers on that dyno, then the 67 would be a lot more, right?


As for the cost, I didn't spend as much as other people have with 500+ cc motors. Besides, I have plenty of money. Who cares? It's only money. I could have spent a lot more....


I've heard a few ppl say "I would have expected more". Well, I'd like to know how much more and what they are basing that opinion on. I certainly don't see a multitude of builds that are done cheaply that have ecllipsed 61 hp - especially on this particular dyno. With everything taken into consideration, there's not a reasonable person that could come to the conclusion that this build doesn't meet expectations........ If they do, they have an agenda behind it. No question in my mind.

what was your exact changes from the last time you dynoed it?

petty sure chuck changed from

hrc/slip on to venom
standard valves to plus valves
stock carb to bored fcr carb/rat stack
stock intake to esr intake
hc3 to hrc cam

correct?

Good numbers Chuck... glad you finally got the bugs worked out.

That is correct.

W/ all these new parts you put in. Now did RE give you fare dyno results?

i'm guessing you didn't do any runs on that build with the HC3? You switched to the HRC, liked it and dynoed with it only, correct?

Glad you got what you were hoping for... I'm sure it's a runner.

I'm also curious if you tried different cams? Was that the highest hp number, and did that cam take away from the torque on that big motor?

I'm fairly positive that the HRC cam is leaving some torque on the table... but it's all in what feels best when your riding. You may not want 40lbs of explosive torque, maybe you want it a tad softer on the bottom... which is understandable.

No cam changes. I picked one and went with it. There's enough data out there to show that the early HRC makes more top than the Stage 3 with a loss of some bottom and some torque. Why didn't I fine tune it to the N'th degree? Because this isn't a competition motor. It isn't a bragging rights build. It isn't a dyno queen. I don't have that much interest in making it any one of those either. It's a simple "anyone can make this kind of power with the right parts" build that makes really good power. It's a fun, reliable, weekend hill racer for grins only motor that I don't have to reshim every 10 hours. You guys know as well as I that even with my 250 lb arse on this thing, I'll be having a lot of fun ripping up the sand. That's what this sport is supposed to be about for the vast majority of riders. Fun. Not serious racing.


want2bfast - nobody can compare dyno runs done on two different dyno's with completely different builds and with completely different afr's. I'm not going to speculate on "what if's".... I'm not going to start comparing different dyno's around town or in different cities just so people have something to argue about on the net. I also have absolutely no desire to get into a dyno readings war and start comparing my results with other people's results on different dyno's either. Based on all the widely fluctuating results from all the dyno's we see, getting into any discussion about raw numbers off a dyno is nothing more than an exercise in ego building. If I was that interested in being seen as some big shot engine building guru with the most powerful motor on the planet, I'd go find a dyno that reads very high, fine tune the build with cam timing and cam swapping and post up the results. Then, if I did, I'd have all the nay-sayers come out of the woodwork to tell me that the results are not believable...

The way I see it, if you post low numbers, everyone jumps your shiite for not performing up to some fantasy level of expectations. If you post too high, then people jump your shiite for posting what isn't possible or isn't believable.... Damned if you do and damned if you don't.


I might sound a little irritated, but I'm really not. I'm trying to put everything into perspective and keep anything I've posted here from getting flamed. It's happened way too many times to me. You post some data, then everyone jumps on it. If that happens here, I'll ask the mods to shut the threads down in a heartbeat.

This is data. Nothing more, nothing less. It's another example of what the right parts and the right builder can do with parts that anyone can buy. No special unobtanium parts. No billion dollar porting. Just the right combo. I didn't have that before. Now I do. And I am happy and that's all that matters, isn't it?

Excellent post Chuck.

Glad you're happy with the build. Sounds like a sweet all-around runner for sure!!

Now get out there and sling some sand!

Later- Kris

That is a great combo of parts looks like to me. Way to go Chuck on you new build. Those numbers look really good to me. Go out and enjoy that thing. The best part about it as you stated is it should be very reliable. Have fun. Congrats.

That's really interesting on the HRC cam. I didn't realize that it worked so well. I keep thinking that I should try a more aggresive cam, but I'm like you, I don't want to be riding a time-bomb and worrying about maintenece all the time. Maybe this early HRC is the ticket.

I think Sreddish has one of these, maybe he'll let me try it out. hint, hint


Have you had a chance to ride it with your paddles? If not, you're gonna freak!


Enjoy!

Congrats Chuck!
Thats an awesome build!
You are going to love it.
You will love that Venom pipe too.
I promise that there are less than a small handful of builds that will last like that one and make 97 db!
Congrats and thankd for sharing.

That is all the truth right there Chuck, I don't think anyone could have said it any better. Numbers are just that, numbers. Your bike makes you happy and have a blast riding it. Great write up there

Actually Greg, I have two. Yep, two. One might find itself in my wife's bike, the other doesn't have a home, your welcome to try it!! In fact, haven't I been telling you to come up and try a friggin cam... but noooo, you won't listen.... lol

I have a

Megacycle X1
Megacycle X2
Honda early HRC - 2 of them
400 Johnson
Hotcams Stage 3

so whatcha whatcha whatcha want?

Thanks Ralph! lol

I may take you up on that in a couple of weeks. Maybe you should have a showcase for all those cams!

Chuck... thanx so much for the posting\ info....much appreciated.....

the HC S3 made more torque than the early HRC..... but the HRC made a bit better peak & better overrev... and you know the HRC treats the valvetrain with kid gloves....nice...

the only way to have accurate comparison data is to stay on one dyno and document before and after status... that way you can compare percentage gains ... and not raw numbers.... raw numbers vary wildy from dyno to dyno...so percentage gains is a great way to keep track....and it's also good to see what other comparable machines have done on the same dyno...again, for accurate comparison..... i believe a 565cc machine running on methanol was reported @ 66 HP on that same dyno....

61.5hp & 38 ft lbs.... with 56 hp still @ the rev limiter.... while being able to pass a 96db & spark arrested test.... ought to keep the rangers at bay & pull you up most of the hills you point it at...!

again...

many thanks for the info

and thanks for the business too.... much appreciated..!

I think you should either grab an early HRC or a HC3 and be done with it. It's funny to me that after all is said and done, I'm happiest with a HONDA cam... LOL That company has more R&D into engines than any other place I know of. They obviously know what to do and what works. For sand, the early HRC is what I'd want, for MX, the later HRC is great too. You could be very close with the HC3 or HC2 as far as performance and reliability.

Things of note - the Honda cams are way more quiet. It must be the leading and trailing ramps. That must be better on the valves... It's nice to have a completed build and be extremely satisfied with it. No more "what if's" for me... Just get to ride it for a while.....

Hells yes Chuck.... you are making me want to ride it Your build is sick and reliable at the same time with that Ice Cube cylinder!! Have you ever tried the 02 CRF cam??? I am pretty set on buying a Honda cam now!! Hope you are out spanking some cocky azzes lol

No 02 CRF cam for me. That one is a great mx cam - much like the HC2 and the later HRC cam.

You might give it a try, it has a real smooth delivery and pulls evenly all the way to the top. I may try Sreddish's HRC and compare the two also.

Enjoy!

Chuck all I can say is NICE! I am completely and 100% jealous. You are likely the guy kicking my ass up Oldsmobile President's Day weekend? My modded Rossier set-up is fast but nothing like that. Looks like I am going to need to contact Venom.

i would be more than happy to help you out , mark....

first thing though.....drop that web cam before it trashes your valvetrain....!

no joke

Thanks for the advice Mixxer. I was wondering about that. Frankly, I was hoping for more out of it and it didn't happen. Live and learn right? Next time an early HRC cam like Chuck or Hotcam S2 or 3.

Once my dune season is over I will be sending you my head. I would like to dialogue with you further on getting a similar set-up as Chuck but maybe without the stroker. I want to keep my reliability because like Chuck I am a competitive guy but just an amateur recreational rider who likes to not be the last one up the hill yet still have a dependable and manageable dune bike.

What would be your preferred method of communication so I can get an idea of timeline, cost, etc.? I was on your website but could not get all my questions answered.

BTW I ran another 06 450ER at Oldsmobile Hill in Glamis President's Day weekend. He too had the full Rossier header and pipe. I was ahead through the flatter bottom whooped portion but about 1/2 way up he blew past me. As part of my usual R and D I went over and introduced myself so that I could take a look at his ride. I suspected I would find a bike with porting work, big bore or both. One of the first things I noticed was the Venon logo etched on the side of his head (very cool if I may say). The guy denied having any porting work but I wasn't born yesterday. You can't trust anyone at the hill. crap I usually tell people I beat that I am stock with exception of the pipe. The look on their faces is worth the little white lie. Anyway back to my story. I recognized the Venom name from this form but could not fully recall what Venom was. He told me all he had different from me was your "special" piston and a S2 Hotcam. I played along and replied, "that must be some "special" piston how do I get one?"

Of course on my return I quickly started reading all the posts I could on this and the 450rheadquarters.com website and everything was leading me to Venom and KBR. Not sure what the relation is but I do know I have been impressed by the members unsolicited comments especially that of Chuck 450ER and the many others. I am about results of course but good customer service and communication in this industry is sometimes less than stellar. Seems you have both down.

Regardless, moral of my little story is I look forward to getting that Venom logo on the side of my engine real soon!

thanks for the kind words Mr. Flexes....

the 06 & up TRX's come with a decent airbox already..... everything upgraded from the 04-05 models.... so reliability\ longevity you could continue using it with a foam filter and the lid removed....in my dyno testing, the larger foam filter of the 06& up machines flowed well enough that the pleated K&N offered no measurable gain.... i get a bit more power with a shortened\ modded ESR intake... but lose the protection of the airbox and foam filter to do it.....

widest powerband ever in a Honda 450 motor comes from the Hot Cam S2 cam..... no real weak spots anywhere...and killer pull from low & midrange....feels like more cc's in the engine at those speeds.... the HC S3 and early HRC both go further up the rpm band in power....with an attendant loss at lower rpms to make it all happen.... give & take... no magic bullets....BUT all of the cams mentioned are safe on the entire valvetrain....power will be the only additional thing wearing on your engine....NOT overly harsh valvetrain velocities.... the webs have been very efficient at wearing out the rocker actuated exhaust guides...while they are busy trying to extrude your valves through the seats....pretty expensive cost for power IMO...


for pulling power in the power robbing friction of sand...or hills... or both..... the torque boost across the band from added displacement is a wonderful thing....whether from bore kit or stroker....

so Mark...if your machine was my own... i would probably go for taperbaring your FCR carb to 42mm for $150.... 470cc high compression Big Bore kit for $525.... and porting for $375.... plus either a Hot cams S2 or S3 cam.... those changes would radically change the power output across the entire RPM band of your TRX.... much more pull from any point.... and the Killer "V" would be embossed on your head at no extra charge..lol...

those would be my suggestions on most radically changed power for the least money spent

if you called tress (shop manager) @ 517 655-2870.... she would likely give you a better package pricing...

many thanx for your interest in Venom....

I will be calling Tress soon. Have a few more trips to Glamis planned so will make this a summer project. maybe get that Webcam changed out sooner.