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Honda TRX450R Forums: Honda TRX 450R Forum > 450R Performance and Mods. > Engine
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mixxer
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i have really grown tired of educating my competition while i'm just wanting to share some tech with the world.... they never miss a single tech thread i write....

BUT..

i have answered so many posts and PM's about the mythological dangers of high compression... i figured it would be a good idea to just write a thread on the topic and be done with it... so here goes

in no particular syntax... here's the dope...

if there is truly ONE magic sorcerer.gif powerband bullet for a 4-stroke... high compression IS it...no question

4-strokes love... Love...LOVE wub.gif HIGH COMPRESSION.....!!!

high compression does not cause a top end power loss in 4-strokes the way it can add a pumping load to a 2-stroke engine.... that is a very persistent hold over myth to beat down.....

high compression makes your engine perform likeit has a bigger displacement at lower RPM's....and it makes it perform like it has more camshaft at high RPM's.... more bottom...more top...and better throttle response across the board.... a beautiful thing, and very hard trick to beat.. short of forced induction

so as to not perpetuate any sort of mythological fecal fog here... it needs to be explained exactly how high compression does all of that...

high compression is NOT just a high dome that squeezes the A\F mix so tight is goes off like an atomic bomb... the tighter pressure squeeze does indeed help the power output...but it isn't all the magic

it's tough to paint an analogy in layman's terms with words alone.... . as always, i will use exaggerated illustrations for the purpose of clarity...

your piston and cylinder arrangement has now become a GIANT syringe.... the piston is the rubber plunger...and the clear tube is your cylinder.... and while we are at it..... lets give it 2 needle outlets on top too...one for intake and one for exhaust....

in our LOW compression model...we will exaggerate and say that the piston\ plunger only goes as high as half way up the tube at the top of its stroke

and the HIGH compression model goes very close to the end of the tube at the top of its stroke

that exaggeration will help with understanding all the other dynamics besides how tight the mixture gets squeezed alone....

so ...besides being used to squeeze the A\F charge before ignition.... you piston\ plunger is also important to how much vacuum is seen during the intake \ suction stroke......

let's say you could put your finger over the intake side of the LOW compression syringe ...and then feel the amount of vacuum generated as you pull the plunger\piston to the bottom of the stroke...... you will notice that the vacuum builds slowly...and doesn't become very strong until the bottom of the stroke...

doing the same test with the HIGH compression plunger \piston.... where the piston has a much smaller volume of air trapped above it to begin with.... you will see a very fast...very sharp rise in the vacumm it generates...since it has less trapped volume to dampen the vacuum in the first place....

so what does that do for a running engine?? a few things...all good!

the higher compression version provides a STRONGER and EARLIER vacuum pulse into the intake tract... which makes for better\ sharper throttle response by delivering a stronger signal to the carb's metering circuits...

and also the sharper vacuum drop makes the incoming fuel droplets break up \atomize into a better\ finer air + fuel fog.... the smaller the fuel droplets...the better the combustion...the only part that can burn is the part that comes in contact with oxygen... big droplets only have the "skin" of the drop burn away durung combstion...the reaminder of the drop not only doesn't burn...and adds unburned hydrocarbon emissions to the atmosphere....it also serves to dampen the combustion process by absorbing latent heat energy from the part that does combust...

the other thing that the stronger vacuum signal from the higher compression piston does is also wonderful....

it CREATES a HIGHER VELOCITY incoming INTAKE CHARGE....

what does that do you ask? one thing that higher velocity does is keeps atomized fuel droplets in suspensioin better than a lower velocity charge does...and we know that is a good thing....

and we sort of know that higher compression gives back a lot of the torque that a BIG duration cam loses... but most people think that the tighter squeeze of the A\F mix prior to ignition is what does this (and of course, that's part of it)...

first we need to know why a big cam actually loses bottom end power and response in the first place

a modern performance cam opens the intake some 20 to 30 degrees before the piston is all the way to the top of the EXHAUST stroke.... just prior to the beginning of the downward intake stroke....and it doesn't close the intake valve until somewhere from 50 to 70 degrees AFTER the piston has reached the bottom of the intake stroke and has started back up on the compression stroke...

at high speeds you need to have the intake valve open those long periods of time to simply have enough time @ high rpm to get any sort of decent cylinder fill...and at high piston speeds @ high rpm you will get a stronger vacuum pull into the intake port.... and the velocity generated in the port can sort of "ram charge" the incoming mix into the cylinder even though the intake valve is still open as the piston is traveling upwards for as much as 70 degrees of rotation

BUT at lower speeds.... you not only don't get as much piston speed generated vacuum signal ...with a BIG cam you are still leaving the intake open long enough after bottom ... that the piston is able to push charge that has already entered the cylinder back up through the open intake valve... i've said many times that you can't compress a charge in a cylinder that isn't sealed...

SO...

as we have already discussed....the high compression piston imparts more vaccum...and more signal...and more velocity into the intake tract...in a BIG cammed engine...that added intake velocity helps to give enough inertia to the incoming charge that it helps to counter act tha low speed reversion of the intake flow....

high comprression one-two punch to help with low end loss on big cams.... tighter squeeze is always bigger boom...PLUS higher velocity \ earlier acceleration of the intake charge making for more cylinder fill AND less reversion loss of that charger by virtue of that greater velocity...

so could high compression possibly do anything else ...beyond the wonderful stuff outlined already??

you bet it does!

on the exhaust stroke it is more effective at getting more of the burned charge out of the cylinder....think of the 2 different piston\ plunger\ syringe's again.... the one that leaves the least space at the top of the cylinder is the one that pushed the most spent charge out the exhaust.....

and it did it with higher velocity too..... and since higher exhaust velocity has more inertia heading in the OUT direction...it creates a stronger vacuum in its wake....

which brings us to another good thing....

at top dead center \ piston at its highest point...at he end of the exhaust stroke...and beginning of the intake stroke...it is during the period known as "cam overlap".... for a brief segment of time ...just before and just after the top...the intake AND exhaust valves are open just a little bit...and for very good reason....

the exiting high velocity exhaust...and subsequent vacuum tail it leaves in its wake....will pull the last bit of spent charge out of the cylinder... AND use its energy to begin pulling the intyake charge into the cylinder...even BEFORE the piston begins its downward intake stroke... it couldn't vacuum the rest of the combustion chamber out completely...OR begin the movenent of the fresh charge inward from the intake tract unless both intake and exhaust valves were open simultaneously @ TDC...which is exactly why there is overlap timing in high performance cams in the first place.....

NOW....

which would take better advantage of a strong exhaust vacuum signal....and both clean out the combustion chamber AND transfer some of that vacuum energy effectively to the intake port??? the large combustion chamber volume of low compression OR the small\ efficient combustion chamber volume of the high compression piston??

once again..... ADVANTAGE HIGH COMPRESSION.....

i hope i was effective at illustrating the MANY unseen...and largely unknown...advantages of how a high compression setup works...well beyond the simple "tighter squeeze of the charge" ( which is wonderful in and of itself BTW)

now...to debunk the RELIABILITY VS HIGH COMPRESSION myth...hopefully for the last time....

horsepower and torque are a direct reflection of the combustion pressures seen inside an engine......

ANYTHING that makes your engine have a higher output is a result of it creating more combustion pressure within your engine...... whether the power came from a jet kit...pipe...cam...special fuel...etc...etc...

as far as the stress on your engine components....they have not the slightest idea wher the pressure comes from...and they wouldn't really care either...more pressure = more power = more stress on everything...

a 50 hp pump gas setup ..... is putting out more stress on the engine components ....than a high compression engine delivering 47hp.... the compression isn't what is the stress...the actual pressure from combustion is.... and combustion pressure is MANY times greater than cranking compression in any event....

increased power = stress and accelerated wear.... that is the bottom line....it doesn't have anything to do with what compression you have..aside from the actual power it adds to the engine..

and BTW....on the piston reliability thing...compression notwithstanding... there are design and material components that will make one piston\ ring setup better in the reliability and longevity arena's
450RRR
so is Nitrous bad or what? _specialED.gif

just messing with ya......

after all that....I figured some 'light' reading was in order..... tongue.gif


14.5:1 on Nitrous is a lot of squeeze.......but oh boy does she like to be SQUEEEEEZED...... wub.gif


me~
scrapper450r
excellent read, nice thread mixxer.
mixxer
glad to do do it guys...

hope it entertains and enlightens.... i used to do this sort of tech writing more often.... before i got caught up in the pizzfest stuff....

i like tech writing much better!
mixxer
i'm waiting for someone to ask how high comp can impregante your girlfriend.....
Pgreenlaw
I wish I could trade brains with you. It would be a win/lose situation. (with me being the winner..)
millertime
thanks good read......
FLSwampRat
Best detailed explanation of four stroke piston power I have ever read. I even learned something I didn't know! Top dead center flow... nice!

JD
Ripper
Very nice, thanks for taking the time to do that john!

And how can it get your girl friend knocked up? Since no one else will ask!!!
MDFMac
juice= 1inch drill bit to drill out the syringe and drop in a 1/2 stick of dynomite.
Sheepless
Excellent detailed read Mix.


So what's your solution for not getting the miss's pregnant? sweatingbullets.gif
mixxer
QUOTE(450Ripper @ Mar 5 2007, 11:58 AM) [snapback]346852[/snapback]
Very nice, thanks for taking the time to do that john!

And how can it get your girl friend knocked up? Since no one else will ask!!!


thanks!

while you are all busy reading my long winded thread.... it means you wont be able to see me sneaking off with your ladies thumbup.gif
Sheepless
QUOTE(mixxer @ Mar 5 2007, 11:40 AM) [snapback]346873[/snapback]
QUOTE(450Ripper @ Mar 5 2007, 11:58 AM) [snapback]346852[/snapback]
Very nice, thanks for taking the time to do that john!

And how can it get your girl friend knocked up? Since no one else will ask!!!


thanks!

while you are all busy reading my long winded thread.... it means you wont be able to see me sneaking off with your ladies thumbup.gif

lol.gif
450RRR
QUOTE(mixxer @ Mar 5 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]346873[/snapback]
while you are all busy reading my long winded thread.... it means you wont be able to see me sneaking off with your ladies thumbup.gif




you can have mine John....all you had to do was ask.... rofl.gif


on a side note: are you planning on having any STICKERS made of your new LOGO......it looks sweet... my bike could certainly use one....

and is there ANY way a 'placard' could be made that could attach to my cylinder head? maybe an aluminum placard that could be epoxied on....or something like that? advertising never hurt anyone...... think about it...

Greg

DirtDevilbt
post-696-1105670986.gif clap.gif

My girl ain't porting anyone elses head but mine!
TRX450R14
If everyone had the knowledge and ability to explain it the way you do...we would all have the best power producing,efficient engines out there. clap.gif

Actually,now that I think about it....all the best info in the world does no good if it falls on deaf ears. rtfm.gif

Thanks for that write up...great info as usual.
ZIPS-TRX
Great info! Thanx for sharing. thumbup.gif
D3kTrix
Great info, much appreciated.


Soaked up every word.
450r rida
QUOTE(mixxer @ Mar 5 2007, 08:18 AM) [snapback]346831[/snapback]
i'm waiting for someone to ask how high comp can impregante your girlfriend.....


I think I got the ideal.......... When your in glamis and you have too high of a compression and you don't set your bike up right and it fails banghead.gif you still need something to ride ...ump...ump _specialED.gif ?
mwsartain
Great write up! Very informative and detailed.
DeW
QUOTE(mwsartain @ Mar 5 2007, 06:29 PM) [snapback]347008[/snapback]
Great write up! Very informative and detailed.



I agree.. Nice read.
desrt_racr15
why go to MMI when i can just wait for these tech threads! lmao.

Great read john keep it up!

Eric.
558KingR
That was a damn good write-up John.
BackSpace
QUOTE
a 50 hp pump gas setup ..... is putting out more stress on the engine components ....than a high compression engine delivering 47hp.... the compression isn't what is the stress...the actual pressure from combustion is.... and combustion pressure is MANY times greater than cranking compression in any event....

increased power = stress and accelerated wear.... that is the bottom line....it doesn't have anything to do with what compression you have..aside from the actual power it adds to the engine..
so what ever you do to increase power robes you of some life


YES and it's exponential

QUOTE
is putting out more stress on the engine components ....than a high compression engine delivering 47hp....


this in my opinion a mixxed statement as hp is torque + rpm timing advance can be used to mimic more compression to a point but has more negative work and a lot of other mixed bag of nuts

Power is a combination of a lot of things yada yada

the true component is burn pressure period every thing else relates to filling and scavenge = charge = burn pressure now add + power delivery = stroke length + bore + rod length what I going to say is you may not make you most pressure at you peak HP which would probably be some where around you peak torque

so peak HP may not relate to peak burn pressure and throw in another factor it would also depend one your peak load one the engine free revving cruising down a fire road or just a freaked out hill rat so that also sacrafes life or adds + maintance



QUOTE
If everyone had the knowledge and ability to explain it the way you do...we would all have the best power producing,efficient engines out there.

there are others but they do not have the time or get bored and tired of trying to teach to others that cannot think for there selves or just plain read and understand most will never get it

if you are smart enough to go looking for a book or info you might have a chance

but you have to be willing to invest in it or the trade


very few will shell out money for porting tools and that's More than a die grinder and one burr or let alone a set of neways etc. yes 4 strokes ups the ante
TRX450R14
I am a shop owner/technician myself so I agree with you.....there are many of us out there with the knowledge but I will admit I don't quite have the patience that mixxer does when it comes to explaining things lol.
That is what's so great about this site...most members can recognize and distinguish the difference between good factual info from bs. thumbsup.gif

mixxer
QUOTE(450RRR @ Mar 5 2007, 01:37 PM) [snapback]346904[/snapback]
QUOTE(mixxer @ Mar 5 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]346873[/snapback]
while you are all busy reading my long winded thread.... it means you wont be able to see me sneaking off with your ladies thumbup.gif




you can have mine John....all you had to do was ask.... rofl.gif


on a side note: are you planning on having any STICKERS made of your new LOGO......it looks sweet... my bike could certainly use one....

and is there ANY way a 'placard' could be made that could attach to my cylinder head? maybe an aluminum placard that could be epoxied on....or something like that? advertising never hurt anyone...... think about it...

Greg



slowly but surely i'm working out the sticker and graphics based on the new Venom logo...

i was thinking abot having some custom graphics made for my CRF450X bike....the shroud\wing graphics... and replacing the words Honda 450X...with VENOM 477X... or VENOM 501X.....
mixxer
QUOTE(TRX450R14 @ Mar 5 2007, 02:21 PM) [snapback]346938[/snapback]
Actually,now that I think about it....all the best info in the world does no good if it falls on deaf ears. rtfm.gif

Thanks for that write up...great info as usual.



thanks for the props! always a pleasure to share some good tech dope....
Raistlin 12


slowly but surely i'm working out the sticker and graphics based on the new Venom logo...

i was thinking abot having some custom graphics made for my CRF450X bike....the shroud\wing graphics... and replacing the words Honda 450X...with VENOM 477X... or VENOM 501X.....
[/quote]


I want some of that action Mix.
mixxer
QUOTE(BackSpace @ Mar 5 2007, 11:27 PM) [snapback]347146[/snapback]
[

QUOTE
is putting out more stress on the engine components ....than a high compression engine delivering 47hp....


this in my opinion a mixxed statement as hp is torque + rpm timing advance can be used to mimic more compression to a point but has more negative work and a lot of other mixed bag of nuts

Power is a combination of a lot of things yada yada

the true component is burn pressure period every thing else relates to filling and scavenge = charge = burn pressure now add + power delivery = stroke length + bore + rod length what I going to say is you may not make you most pressure at you peak HP which would probably be some where around you peak torque

so peak HP may not relate to peak burn pressure and throw in another factor it would also depend one your peak load one the engine free revving cruising down a fire road or just a freaked out hill rat so that also sacrafes life or adds + maintance





very valid points Mr. Backspace....

peak torque does represent the most efficient cylinder filling point... and it is the peak pressure point...

but peak HP comes with higher RPM's.... and there is a huge wear factor associated with the inertia stress that comes with high RPM...
BackSpace
QUOTE
but peak HP comes with higher RPM's.... and there is a huge wear factor associated with the inertia stress that comes with high RPM...
I wasn't done like I said there are a lot of things but I did not feel like writing a thesis last night beatingdeadhorse.gif

QUOTE
Mr. Backspace....
why so formal coffee.gif
mixxer
QUOTE(BackSpace @ Mar 7 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]347630[/snapback]
QUOTE
but peak HP comes with higher RPM's.... and there is a huge wear factor associated with the inertia stress that comes with high RPM...
I wasn't done like I said there are a lot of things but I did not feel like writing a thesis last night beatingdeadhorse.gif

QUOTE
Mr. Backspace....
why so formal coffee.gif



so should i call you "back' or "space"... as the informal nickname??...lol..


i always enjoy reading any "thesis" you write.... hope that's what you're working on while you are drinking that coffee!
Chuck's 06 450
QUOTE(mixxer @ Mar 8 2007, 07:09 AM) [snapback]348115[/snapback]
QUOTE(BackSpace @ Mar 7 2007, 01:32 AM) [snapback]347630[/snapback]
QUOTE
but peak HP comes with higher RPM's.... and there is a huge wear factor associated with the inertia stress that comes with high RPM...
I wasn't done like I said there are a lot of things but I did not feel like writing a thesis last night beatingdeadhorse.gif

QUOTE
Mr. Backspace....
why so formal coffee.gif



so should i call you "back' or "space"... as the informal nickname??...lol..


i always enjoy reading any "thesis" you write.... hope that's what you're working on while you are drinking that coffee!



More suggestions for a nickname

Mr. Back? Mr. Space? Spongeback Bobspace? Mr B? or just plain Mr. BS... ).gif j/k
BackSpace
QUOTE
Mr. Backspace....
I hope it show a little respect


QUOTE
Mr. BS...
that one can be taken wrongly hrhr.gif coffee.gif


well may be later on i will add some tonight my day off and I relieving stress
katch26
ok hers a question what compression (if it matters) that can be safely attained in sleeved cylinders?, I was higher compression put more force on the sleeve and cause slippage issues.....t/f?
BackSpace
if its a good quality liner and the cylinder it goes in and has fairly good wall thickness and quality and properly machined does it matter the word hear is properly but some one are not and for the record most Suzuki LT do recess


if they do are not properly made and a design flaw


most liners are not done properly and if done right are expensive to do nothing less than a lathe not a boring bore and super smooth finish should be done all most like grinding


some factory one are replaceable just heat in oven to 400 and it slides out and install the new one but should be held down with a press till cooled and may need surfacing cheep made liners are made to replace no replaceable one but are no done properly

some factory cylinders have non replaceable liners

the actual liner has locking groves or steps and outer aluminum shell is cast around cylinder
Chuck's 06 450
QUOTE(BackSpace @ Mar 8 2007, 09:25 PM) [snapback]348499[/snapback]
if its a good quality liner and the cylinder it goes in and has fairly good wall thickness and quality and properly machined does it matter the word hear is properly but some one are not and for the record most Suzuki LT do recess


if they do are not properly made and a design flaw


most liners are not done properly and if done right are expensive to do nothing less than a lathe not a boring bore and super smooth finish should be done all most like grinding


some factory one are replaceable just heat in oven to 400 and it slides out and install the new one but should be held down with a press till cooled and may need surfacing cheep made liners are made to replace no replaceable one but are no done properly

some factory cylinders have non replaceable liners

the actual liner has locking groves or steps and outer aluminum shell is cast around cylinder



Were you on crack when you wrote this ^^^^^^^?

Holy shiite.

Example - "if they do are not properly made and a design flaw" WTH does that mean??? post-696-1105671076.gif


Either you were drunk, tired or on crack... Wow..... LMFAO
D3kTrix
QUOTE(Chuck @ Mar 9 2007, 11:45 AM) [snapback]348594[/snapback]
Were you on crack when you wrote this ^^^^^^^?

Holy shiite.

Example - "if they do are not properly made and a design flaw" WTH does that mean??? post-696-1105671076.gif


Either you were drunk, tired or on crack... Wow..... LMFAO



Ya that one really messed with my head. lol
BackSpace
QUOTE
Were you on crack when you wrote this ^^^^^^^?
no


and if you have seen as many cylinders and all the inherent flaws that were made in to them you might know



so what do you know if you know something about it post it all you can say is were you on crack well start working on something you self


gee

were you on crack


gee

freaking neophytes rtfm.gif

D3kTrix
He was saying your grammar is super hard to understand, he wasn't knocking your tech know how.
katch26
yeah man you lost me on that one.....we know you KNOW what youre talking about it just wasnt conveyed very well.
rstaw2_Zs
WOW mixxer!

I think part of my head exploded!?!?

mixxer
could one of the admin please bump this thread to the Venom section?

i think it has run its course for activity in the engine section...
mixxer
^^^^ pretty please^^^^
jmthepred
QUOTE(mixxer @ Mar 20 2007, 04:52 AM) [snapback]352268[/snapback]
^^^^ pretty please^^^^

very good tech read. about compression benifits mixxer,can you look at a dyno graph and a list of parts and be able to tell what cam duration,lift and timing would be best for a drag engine or would it take more hands on and a flow bench ?I read that the most important valve event is intake closing because it governs the effect of the compression ratio.How do you know when there is to much overlap or not enough valve overlap?
mixxer
that's a pretty big question(s)....

there are so many variables in any engine...and changing even one parameter means you may have to change all the others to make that one change work at its full potential...

if you have done engine building for long enough, you will have an idea of where to begin with everything...and then you fine tune it all with the help of tons of dyno testing and ride testing...



jmthepred
QUOTE(mixxer @ Mar 20 2007, 07:32 AM) [snapback]352295[/snapback]
that's a pretty big question(s)....

there are so many variables in any engine...and changing even one parameter means you may have to change all the others to make that one change work at its full potential...

if you have done engine building for long enough, you will have an idea of where to begin with everything...and then you fine tune it all with the help of tons of dyno testing and ride testing...

thanks for the reply,I didn't think there would be a magic bullet.LOL
00chevy
Very nice read Mixxer! Its nice when someone knowlegdable helps explain to others things they are interested in.
mixxer
thanks 00chevy!

it's my pleasure..... i am going to write another one about pistons real soon....
450RRR
moved per your request John.....enjoy.......me~
JJONES660
but i thought COmpression hurts high end horse on a yfz thumbup.gif

haha...just kidding...i love the myths youve debunked over time...

great writeup john...i couldnt have explained it any better myself...oh wait...youve taught me all that i know about compression LOL

welcome.gif
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