let's start doing things the right way

and let's start it right here and now, first time ever, on this very website

let's make history!!

being governed by physical laws, we compare specs on all engine components to get an idea on how it will perform, based on what we have seen happen with such changes in specs in the past.

that's why we can predict with reasonable certainty what will happen when we change things like compression \ cam duration \ carb size \valve size \stroker cranks etc..etc..

we all want to know the specs on our original component, and the specs of our intended higher performance replacement for it. that's how we can determine if it will perform in the way we wish to go with our mods :ph34r:

that's why we want to know what the specs are on everything, such as a new cam b4 we buy it, if the specs aren't different from what we now have, and in the direction we wish to go, we wont waste our money buying it ,......right??

well guys, you can do the same exact thing with an exhaust system!!!

an exhaust system is basically a confined space, for the spent gasses to travel in,
........from the cylinder head to the atmosphere :huh:

all that matters for power characteristics are the lengths, and diameters, that make up this exhaust pathway...... it's just a tube with some differences in diameter along the way

and inside dimensions are all that the gas "sees", so that's all that really matters, not the outside at all, ever , in any way.......... to infinity and beyond :D

the pipe manufacturers don't want anyone to think about, or compare such things, because they don't want anyone to be clued in on those facts.

that's why you can get so much information on other components, but nobody tells you anything dimensionally about their exhaust systems. they SHOULD, since those specs are the only thing that determines ANY difference in power output

once you know the dimensions of pipes , you will be able to "read" their power characteristics just as you do for any other power part you buy now. once ytou know the dimension\power of one pipe you know the power for all other pipes of the same dimensions!!! it's that simple :blush:

the same way you wouldn't find 2 identically spec'd cams and expect different power from one over the other, neither would you see any difference in 2 different brands of pipes with identical dimensions................ except for the price
of course!

so let's start the revolution here and now :D
let's begin to speak of pipes dimensionally, just as we do ALL other engine components. ask the manufacturers to start posting pipe specs
and when they refuse, and they will, get out your measuring tape and calipers and check the dimensions yourself and help out your fellow man by posting that information

after all we don't merely say " i bought A piston, or A cam ...and it did this......"
.................. we tell the specs\size ...and then tell what it did

or we can continue to do it the way the manufacturers would rather we do it and continue to give three word reviews...... "sparks rules , dude!!!"

............mixxer


would one of you admin peeps be so kind as to pin this..... pretty pleeeeeeze!

Thats a really good idea Mixxer, I just sold my sparks last week or I would measure it up. I mean they do it with the automotive catback systems. :D

the dimensions would be:

diameter , beginning at cylinder head

lengths of pipe at each diameter, sequentially till the junction to the "silencer"

diameter of silencer core and length of silencer

and finally an overall lenght of all the lengths added together (oal)

that will allow pipe characteristics to be compared to other pipes

dyno runs on similaly set-up machines to "marry" these dimensions to power characteristics is a little much to hope for right now, but at least we can find out how big a variance in dimensions and prices there are

and then compare that to "claimed " power characteristics
cause if there isn't any dimensional difference from $900 WB carbon pro to a $300 HMF system......... there aint gonna be ANY difference in power either!!
that would be in direct violation of the physical laws that engines are governed by!


............mixxer

we can go by OD measurements

most makers use only 20 or 18 ga. tube thickness

and you cant get to the inside of the middle steps(if any) on a pipe anyways

let's do ID on the silencer though, no need to have anyone even remove the system from their machine, just measure it on the bike

.......mixxer

I have the LRD Pro series full exhaust. I can measure it this weekend if you tell me how...

calipers for OD

measuring tape for length

if no calipers you can measure around the pipe and divide by 3.14159 to get the OD

.......mixxer

pie!!! we do use things that we learned in high school. :D

This is good stuff, Mix. You are turning the pipe industry on its ear. Oh how I would love to be a fly on the wall at Sparks, LRD, WB, or HMF as they start getting "informed" buyers asking tough (just to answer, not to get the info) questions.

every party has a pooper...

and this one's got me!!

OK,OK... but then you can't have your pi and eat it too. :D

One question..........


If pi R squared,




do you say cake R round??

over on atvriders i just so happened to stumble across a guy asking c&d about the pulse charger. he was asking them if it was cracked up to what it was supposed to be. befor c&d replied i PMed him and told him what little i know about it. i told him to come over to this site and find mixxer. i told him if a top end bike is what he is building than there is no other pipe out there better than this one.

just from knowing about what all went on with you and harlin, i didnt know what kind of answer he would be getting from someone on the site, so i figured i would inform him a little.

oh yeah, c&d's answer was,"We have never used the pulse charger exhaust, last I knew it was not available yet. It is rather large from looking at the pictured that I have seen".

i appreciate that, thank you!

but lets not mention the pc in this thread at all

i want you guys to map out everything you currently own, and start to make connections between performance and dimensions, just as you do for all other performance parts!

we could also make some notes on db too, while we're at it

come on guys, break out the tapes!! i bet, with all the members here almost every pipe made could be sampled for our chart!!

........mixxer

i have the dmc alien, just specifically tell me wat to mesure wile its on the bike, and ill get to it, like the dual outlet sizes? how far apart do i mesure the dimensions of the headers, i know it runs around a 100 db, so i was told, and etc, just let me know, ill try to help.


PS, i should show stuff like this to my math teacher, he loves how math applies to everything in the universe :lol:

measure to each (if any) change in diameter along the headpipe length

if there is no diameter change, then measure the OD and the whole length to the silencer

then measure the ID of the silencers' hole(s) and the length of the silencer

.....mixxer

how are you going to tell which guage tubing is being used?

it wont matter for our purposes!

the difference between the 2 gauges is only about .010"

negligable change at best

......mixxer

just curiouse, but does the radius of the pipe at the first bend out of the head affect power? if it's tighter or wider? and should that be one of the things measured?

so at every step of diameter change on the outer diameter ofthe exhaust, i should not this, then not the distance between the chane till i reach the slip on, at the slip on the is a cover over the pipe that is larger then the pipe, do i take accout of this, then i only measure the lenght of the silencer as well as both outlet radius, tell me if i got this right?

yep, correct!

count the cover as part of the silencer length

good question, and there will be some effect from tight radii bends, but for the general information gathering here , we are going to reduce the pipe to a straight line

......mixxer

alright, ill get to it when i can

I'll give'r a try.
Rossier pipe
Headpipe
First outside dia. 1.631" for 15 1/2"
secend o.d 1.750" for 8 5/8"
third o.d 1.83" for 15 3/4"
Overall length 39 1/2"

Silencer 17" overall
1 7/8" core

The Yoshi measures
1.5" for 17.5"
1.625" for 12"
1.85" for the last 7" for a total of 36.5"
The silencer is 16" long w/ 1 7/8" outlet

AWESOME gentlemen!!!

that is exactly the form to post them in!!

let's get em ALL and figure out how we want to graph them for easy reference!

then we will talk about what direction all those dimensions affect power

.........mixxer

I'm going to measure my Eddie Sanders pipe, is mm OK?. And on the first part of the headder pipe which length do you want as the length of the outer bend is much longer than the inner bend......

Linc

You'll want to use the center of the bend. I'd just use a piece of string and lay it on the pipe then remove it and measure it.

Tony

Click to view attachment
Header O/D 41.061mm(1.62"), length 233mm(9.17")
2nd O/D 44.881mm(1.77"), length 125mm(4.92")
3rd O/D 48.701mm(1.92"), length 252mm (9.92")
4th O/D 50.292mm(1.98"), length 160mm(6.30")
Silencer O/D 50.292mm(1.98"), length 415mm(16.34") (inc both end caps)

ESR PRO Pipe, now if someone would be nice enough to convert it in to imperial, it should make sence to you all.

Linc

I made my own slip on using approximate measurements off of a dr. d pipe. I utilized the stock 1.5 headpipe then transitioned up to 1.8 the stepped up to a 2 inch od entering the canister. The canister is 16.25 inches in overall length. The center tube is a perforater 18ga SS tube that I made. It has .117 holes with .156 staggered centers. the can od measures 4.5x3.5 with a 1 inch radius on the corners and is made of 050 6061 aluminum. The end plate is welded in the can with a 1.9 dia hole exiting the back. Then I built different sized bolt on end caps welded on at a 29 degree angle. The largest outlet is 1.888 and the smallest is a 1.64. I will post some pics when I get it back from anodizing wed or thurs. I installed my pipe before sending it out last week, and it really helped the performace on my R. One last note, I used FMF silencer packing, and I think it is a tad quieter than my buddies DR. D.
Karl

LRD Pro series measurments. Very disappoint after this.

There is almost no step up size difference in the entire length of the header

This is what I got. I measured to each weld section on the header pipe.

Heade flange to first weld: 1.6 in - 11 1/2"
First to second weld: 1.6 1/4 - 9 3/8"
Second to Third weld: 1.6 1/2 - 6"
canister to header junction: 1.7 1/2 - 1 1/2"
only weld back to can: 1.8 3/4 - 8"
Can: 15 1/2

Total pipe length: 36 3/8"

If the step up in the pipe make a big difference in the performance. My next question is can I run another make header with the LRD can???

good post 4ever! :) (LRD is one of the highest HP claimers, by the way)

now the cranial gears are starting to mesh!!

thanks for the measurements .....and keep 'em coming!!

we'll figure it all out when we've got more numbers

dez..... get out and measure that WB headpipe!!


................mixxer

Ive got a wb carbon pro.
head to weld 1.47 9.5in
weld to connection 1.60 15in
connection to weld 1.87 5in
weld to muffler 2.12 8in
muffler outlet ID 1.91 17in billet front to the end of the billet tip 54.5in length
I love the idea of being able to buy the most powerful pipe the first time but I would like to see some ideas as to quality and reliability.
My header cracked once. Replaced under warranty.
It vibrates around at the pipe connection.
The rear upper hanger is now coming loose at the canister.
Im happy with the power and it looks good.

I have the Alba Exhaust System: Heres what I got,


Head to first step 1 3/16 and 1 1/4 lenght
First step to second step 1 17/64 and 14 1/2 lenght
Second to third 1 3/8 and 9 3/8 leght
Third to fouth step 1 9/16 and 11 1/4 lenght
Canister inside is 2 1/4 and 16 1/2 lenght
Total lenght is 52 7/8

What he said, but the silencer body is 14" + end cap for a total of 16"

keep the numbers comming guys!

next i want to ask if you guys know what each "step" is supposed to do?

no penalties for guessing, only for not thinking about it

.........mixxer

Add to production costs?

it does a couple other things too!

helps to change the pressure/temperature relationship of the exhaust gas as it leaves the pipe

allows for expansion to relieve pressures in the exhaust gases as they cool from there supper heated state and become more dense :huh:

Anything to do with velocity?

As the pipe steps up in size the gas has to fill a larger volume therefor making a slight vacum in the pipe before it.........maybe.

The same effect as the pulse charger but on a much smaller scale?

Linc

[/quote]

As the pipe steps up in size the gas has to fill a larger volume therefor making a slight vacum in the pipe before it.........maybe.

The same effect as the pulse charger but on a much smaller scale?

Linc

[/quote]


this is almost exactly it !!! :D

i'll explain more later!!

this would cause the gasses to flow in to the area of least Resistance quicker,which in turn would speed up the flow. but would all so lower the pressure and the temp of the gas. with less pressure on the gas it makes it easier to move the gas it becomes denser.

I know there are more pipes to list than this, whats keeping you guys?

lil question, do i measure the circumference of the header then divide by pi for the correct diameter, srry im almost failing math, last i checked i had a 50%

yep, that's how it's done

you're thinking a little too HVAC biased boone. when gas is metered from the condensing side to the evaporator side of the system, it moves slower as it becomes less dense as a gas instead of a super heated liquid.

you've got to move the thinking from your area of expertise. change from heat pump closed system to air pump open system :D

................mixxer

Curtis Sparks pipe dimensions, all are o.d. measurements:

diameter, beginning at cylinder head 1.617’’

lengths of pipe at each diameter, sequentially until the junction to the "silencer"
1st length is 26’’long @ 1.617’’
2nd. 2’’ long @1.626’’
3rd. 2.25’’ long @ 1.906’’
4th. 12’’ long @ 2.00’’

diameter of silencer core and length of silencer 1.980’’dia. 13’’ long
(oal) 57.25’’oal

super heated liquid
Thats Charles and Boyle's Law(Chemistary)
http://members.aol.com/profchm/charles.html
http://members.aol.com/profchm/boyle.html

Air pump open here i come LOL

instead of using a true megaphone (constant divergance) the steps are a way to create a cone effect with stepping up straight wall pipe.

every time a larger area is encountered by a sound wave, it sends a negative pulse (vacuum) back towards the beginning of the pipe. a cone sends a constant vacuum (think 2-stroke pipe) along its entire length. the steps create discrete pulses instesd of a continuous wave.

good velocity coupled with a lessened pressure resistance is what can be had by using a stepped pipe that begins with a smaller diameter.
each step gives a little suction pulse too

downsides to both cones and stepped pipes that get too large is that the larger the area, the slower the flow (like when a river gets deep) . this diminishes the "siphoning effect" you get from velocity in a fluid medium (exhaust gas)

it also makes the suction pulses have to try and "draw down" a larger area to transfer the vacuum to the exhaust port

you see , it's all a balancing act

you need to have diameters and steps that will keep:
velocity up
+ not provide pressure resistance at high revs
+ not get so large that the vacuum pulses are dampened to the point of being ineffective

i keep telling everyone that bigger isn't instantly, magically, better
................... it's just bigger.........

if going all the way up to huge tubes is the way to go, then merely removing the exhaust alltogether should make the best power

even nitro fueled dragsters have a straight, short exhaust stack
............ because it makes a lot more power that way

keep thinking!!

..............mixxer

Ok here is a NMotion pipe numbers:


First stepped header pipe: 1 7/32" o.d. / 15 1/2" long

Second stepped header pipe: 1 7/16" o.d. / 32" long

Third and final stepped header pipe: 1 15/16" / 8 1/4" long (stopping at the begining of the silencer)

Silencer: 1 13/16 i.d. (which is the i.d. of the final 1 15/16" third stepped header i believe) and 10" long

Total pipe length is 48 1/4"