i was hoping gabe would start this report since we learned a lot and i only type at the speed of ice flow.

some highlights to begin with and hopefully gabe will expand:

1) rekluse clutch doesn't centrifically lock on dyno runs in top gear until after 5500 rpm

2) cc's without high compression is not more powerful than less cc's with high compression. the peak hp was close but the hi comp had a better spread

3) the FCR is more responsive to ride but did not have any dyno advantage on power. the FCR bottom end response on the dunes was better to the point that i am going to get one and repeat the dyno runs

4) everyone reccommends WAY too rich jetting both gabe & gragg (450r\400ex) picked up almost 2hp on the dyno. using the AFR we dialed down on jet size and picked up power everywhere. example: FST says use 200 main with fcr+500cc and best power was obtained with 180 main and a safe 13.5:1 A\F mixture


5) 2 members of trx450r.org (holeshot13 & friend) came to silver lake with hrc kits & full exhausts and showed us how to win in sand drags. they then rode mine and said that v paddles don't hook as well as straight in the sand and since that is what most people do in the sand they should only use lightweight straight paddle skat trak tires. thanks for the schooling gentlemen. for the record we smoked all comers except those 2, 2-strokes included. they didn't beat us every time but they did beat us most of the time!


...................mixxer

i forgot to add that we tested one exhaust that created so much vacuum on top end that it makes a previously correctly jetted carb run super rich.
..............mixxer

Thats very interesting, and I know you were an advocate of the stock 42mm carb, so it will be interesting to see your final results.



What pipe might that be, and is that a good or bad thing? :huh:

The 200 main that FST recommended to me was with the stock carb, not the FCR. Any HP #s from these runs? Was anyone using a Vortex CDI, or any CDI for that matter?

Good info. Thanks.

we will wait for 86atc250r to give his report. he also has copies of all the dyno runs.

the dyno runs are ok for gabe to post, the numbers are real rear wheel hp with no BS factor thrown in. i.e. all the runs we see in the ads

i had agreat time meeting those guys.

vacuum in an exhaust is not only a good thing, it is a great thing. and if you can get it, it is the only thing.

..........mixxer

One thing to remember when looking at the dyno's (when Gabe posts them) is that the rekluse clutch kit confuses the dyno until around 5500 rpm's ... so they will only be useful in comparing top end. Like Luke said, we will let either mixxer or Gabe post any extra info they wish to share B) BTW, like mixxer said, these dyno's are the real shiznit, they even used the same tires. These aren't those magazine dynos that claim a Raptor with a pipe gets 60 rwhp :lol:

Sorry guys --- been very busy since returning --- will post more later when I have more time to put up a good post.

29 -- from what I've seen on my personal setup the FCR and Stock carb jet very similarly on the main (maybe a size or two lower than stock). My quad was sitting at 185 & we dropped to 180 to get a good reading.

Kid - Funny you mention the 60HP Raptor dyno -- we talked about that a couple times :)

Vacuum - Yes, the Pulse Charger made my mixture go very rich on top (an indication that it was pulling better vacuum up there), unfortunately we didn't have time to rejet as we had to leave to get home at a half way decent hour -- I would imagine it would make for better overrev.

More to come.....

Pfffft ... you didn't know I have ESP??

I can't wait to hear more about the Pulse Charger from you and Mixxer. I'm interested in hearing where the most gains are and if it works well with a mildly modded engine ... and of course price when it finally does go into mass production B) If you ever need a tester that is only the avg. rider, nothing competitive, The Kid is always available :lol:


-Zack-

BTW -- they did dyno a stock 450R, and I am sure they will put up those #'s so you can compare these monsters to what that dyno got on a stock R (same day, same dyno, same conditions, same everything!!) This was done right B)

I thought it was wierd looking to until I seen it in person. Its actually very nice looking and nicely made

Dyno runs of the FST 500 kit and a 13:8:1 setup:

First lets detail the quads...

Bike with 500 Kit:
FST 12:1 500 setup with approx 12:1 compression
HMF pipe
HRC Cam
Removed Airbox lid
40mm FCR Carb with 180 mainjet
Stock head - no porting
Rekluse Clutch
American Racer 18" Dyno/flat track tires


Bike with 13.8:1 piston
JE 13.8:1 stock bore piston
Pulse Charger pipe
Megacycle X1 cam (wilder than HRC & requires head work)
Vented airbox lid
Stock 42mm carb with 165 mainjet
Vicious Cycle Port work
American Racer 18" Dyno/flat track tires

Results: 45hp Peak at the back tires for both machines - if I remember correctly both peaked at 8,000 RPM (I left the printouts in my buddy's truck).

You'll see a lot higher dyno numbers posted. Heck, if you read the magazines, you'll see that both of these quads lost power with these mods VS just adding a popular pipe setup. They're even down 5HP from a stock Raptor with only a CT pipe.

Just bear in mind that these are NO BS numbers that have not been monkey'd with, were obtained on the same day, on the same Dynojet dyno, by the same operator, using the same tires, using roughly the same air/fuel ratio which was verified by a wideband AFR meter. Also, several runs were made to ensure consistant results were obtained.

Now, with that said, the 13.8:1 quad actually developed .2 peak HP more than the 500 setup taking the best run for both quads for the day.

The 13.8:1 with the wild cam did have more overrev and was still making almost max HP at the rev limit (BTW - they both limited exactly at 9,800 RPM) - the 500 setup with the milder HRC cam faded back a bit on top.

Can't really compare the bottom ends since the Rekluse clutch wasn't fully locking in until after 6500 RPM with the heavy dyno load - which is a 5th gear pull from 3000 RPM to the revlimit - it showed almost a 10HP difference at 5,000 RPM, which obviously was not the case.

That doesn't mean the 500 was putting less HP down at that RPM, it simply means that the clutch was still engaging and was throwing off the calculations the dyno was trying to make (showing up as more torque multiplication, tricking the dyno into thinking the 500 was lower geared in those RPMs which would mean lower HP).

Side notes:

FCR vs Stock carb -- Well, we ran out of time and didn't get to dyno a stock carb vs an FCR, but I'm sure peak numbers would have been very similar --- however, in riding these two 45HP machines in the sand we both agreed the 500 felt stronger due to it's throttle response, which was obtained by installing the FCR.

Outerwears VS no Outerwears: No HP or fuel mixure difference seen. These tests were performed on a stock filter with and without an outerwears.

Typical aftermarket "quiet core" installed in the HMF pipe: While peak HP was only down about 1hp --- above and below was hurt substantially. Exhaust sound was not good, but a touch quieter.

Changing from a 185 to a 180 mainjet yeilded a little over a 1hp gain across the board. The quad ran fine on the 185 although I had suspecions that it was rich.

Pulse Charger pipe -- we bolted a Pulse Charger pipe on the 500 as we were getting ready for the long trip home - the quad immediately went way rich in the top end due to the pipe pulling better vacuum up there. Had we taken the time to change the jetting, I feel pretty confident that the 500 would have seen better overrev and maybe a couple HP at the rev-limit.

400EX side note, a 3.5HP difference was seen between a stock 400EX carb and a 39mm FCR on a mildly modified 416EX (HRC cam, Sparks X6 pipe, 10:8:1 Ross piston, GTT "Play" porting, vented airbox lid). Almost 38hp at the back tires ---- FWIW, for only a 7hp difference between this quad an my 450R - the difference in power feel is night and day.

Changing from a 162 main to a 150 main on this quad yeilded over a 2HP gain across the board. Quad ran fine & exhibited no problems running mainjets as high as 175.

I'll post the actual dyno runs when I retrieve them from my buddy's truck....

So the stock bore higher compression motor had port work, wilder cam and a pulse charger exhaust and made the same HP as the 500cc kit with no head work. Interesting... Did anyone dyno a pure stock 450R so that we can see the increases from stock.
Joe

what type of head work does the megacycle cam require? Is it more of a mid top or low mid? Seat of the pants how does it feel compared to a Sparks cam? How agressive was the head work done on mixxers?

Also from reading your post it doesnt sound like there is any need for a Vortex CDI due to both quads reaching their limits at 9500rpms, would you agree?

[QUOTE]

easy joe1 . the high comp motor had more power everywhere. the 2 motors only touched at the peak hp point. the high comp motor was also making 8hp more when the rev limiter kicked in. the high comp motor made over 40hp from 6200rpm all the way to rev limit. peak torque was also 33.50vs32.56 advantage going to high compression. i have been trying to educate you guys and save you money and you seem to be turning it into a p!$$!ng match.

i only said before that 12:1 @ 500cc hold no advantage over 13.8:1 @ 450cc and the stock bore is cheaper on original investment and in ease of getting replacement parts, including gaskets. a 500cc motor with true high compression would be another story but as of right now, there ain't no such animal.

the stocker has 37.2hp peak and you can get upper 39s with the lid off and a rejet.
you wont get any more than that no matter what you do without recamming since the stock cam has only 20deg of overlap it makes other mods a moot point.

love , hugs, and kisses ...............mixxer

Where is the pissing match?? I'm not trying to start anything i'm just comparing the numbers that Gabe had posted. I haven't even made any real judgdements, because i have not seen the dyno charts, all I was doing was restating the obvious. I do realize that peak HP is not as import as a motor that has a wider power band and makes more power earlier and in the over rev. Problem is that you can't exactly compare apples to apples, had you had a non ported head and standard HRC cam, the numbers would be more of an arguement to go with higher Comp piston as opposed to bigger bore. I for one, would love to see that a simple piston swap would be more beneficial than doing a whole 500 kit, but who knows how much porting and the wilder cam had to do with it. Not to mention the fact that you are running the Pulse Charger exhaust, which i do believe will help make that extra power in the over revs. I understand you are quite knowledgeable in regards to these motors so I hope you don't think I'm trying to argue with you. I am just doing a little research as to what I will be buying next.




Desert, I'm not exactly sure what your getting at nor do I know if your are trying to compare me with people from other forums. I don't think I've bought the WRONG part yet at all. I'm still in the decision mode between the high compression piston and an FST500 kit.

I made the apples to apples inference after the fact! -_-

Anybody want to get with me and order some 500cc 13.5 pistons?
I have a good hook up at JE, so I am going to look it up........

KGB get a group price and let the rest of us know what we can get. Also I read the cam faq's and cant find any info on the x1 can someone help me out with info. How does it compare against the sparks and hrc?

i am interested in the group thing... but i would like to have more compression than 13.5 to 1 the motor builder around here has got some 14.7 to 1 je pistons for stock bore. i also think he does run the megacycle cams in his motors... the gas needed for this motor is np for me... a freind of mine is a vp racing dealer... so i can get anything in 10 minutes of ride time to pick it up... let me know what you guys think on this...and if we do go with something like this... i would like my piston to have the vavle releifs big enough to run the megacycle cam and oversized valves too....

i also want to 2 ring piston...

Two comp rings or two rings total?
The pistons am gettign made will be 2 ring total, one compression, one oil, somewhere in the 13-14:1 range.
If you want different, thats cool, but you need to do it your self (unless you will buy 4-5). You have to order 4 or 5 (depends on the company) to have them make a custon piston.

Myself, I would like to have a 12.1 three ring piston!! B)

changed my mined after talking to Luke. I want a two ring 12.1!! B)

1 comp ring and 1 oil ring... if you decide to go with 14 to 1.... i'm interested.... can you ask mixxer about the megacycles cam profile and see how deep the valve pockets need to be? and about putting bigger vavle in? are you thinking of enough clearance to do that also?
terry @ turtle racing engines says that is a must on the 450r... helps out a bunch... let me know what you think on this idea
thanks

Keep me posted on a price KGB, sounds interesting.

I would like to have 2 compression rings though -_-

I've been wondering this..What is the difference between a 2 ring and a 3 ring piston? Obviously that one of them has one less ring on it, but I mean what does it do to the motor to run 2 rings or 3 rings? It's always puzzled me since I learned that the TRX uses a 3 ring piston, and the CRF uses a 2 ring. Thanks.

Basically a 2 ring piston allows the piston to be lighter and have less friction, at the expense of longevity of the rings.
I will let you all know. I also have some cylinders coming........
Dart,
I do not know mixxer any better than you do. He is a cool dude from what I know though. Hit him up.

Yes, please let us know. I want a higher compression piston. But, I don't want to sacrifice longevity!! :mellow:

I'm not a serious racer or anything, so I would rather have the 3 ring piston also. Does anyone know if it would be possible to get the piston in a 3 ring version? If all you need is 4-5 of a piston to get it made, then I wouldn't mind taking 2 pistons.
Joe

Gabe - do you see the problem with the Rekluse not full disengaging as a bad thing? Seems like if it's slipping that much it could equal less then full power to the wheels in real world situations. Alse seems like it's going to eat clutch plates.

REM, I think they were saying it doesnt fully lock up until above 5000 rpm. I dont think it was slipping. More like a limited slip diff. in a rearend if ya will.

Im very anxious to hear about the pulse charger exaust, since its a new product design and technologie i havnt seen used in an exaust before, id like to see how well this works, since u said it richens the mixture i bet this would be a good pipe on a high reving machine, with big valves and porting and such, just a theory anyways, but info on it would be great, a long with a price and where the gains are seen mainly, for i may be wrong.

2 ring vs 3

If you're going to the expense of modifying your engine, why not do it right and set it up like it's supposed to be. Honda made the CRF a 2 ring setup for a reason.

Don't be scared by people with no experience freaking out on the forums because they read a CRF owner's manual. 2 stroke manuals have specified that kind of ring maintenance for years and I think we all know they'll go much longer without trouble then the specified maint interval.

The 2 ring pistons are over 70 grams lighter than stock. This means your connecting rod is much less likely to break, you'll feel less vibration, and your piston is able to accelerate faster. If that's not reason enough to use a 2 ring piston, consider that a two ring piston also has almost 1/2 the ring friction as a 3 ring piston.

If you typically re-ring your quad once a season, you'll still likely be doing it once a season with a 2 ring setup. If you typically re-ring your quad every 2 to 3 seasons or longer --- you should consider not building a race engine that's 50cc over stock and 3 points higer on compression than stock unless you are willing to do some maintenance a little more often ---- really, how long does it take to change a set of rings, especially on a plated cylinder that doesn't require boring or honing? On my first tear down of this engine it took a couple hours. What's the cost of a set of rings? Probably less than an aftermarket air filter costs.

Rekluse -- what you have to understand is doing a 5th gear dyno pull from 3000 RPM with the Rekluse is like trying to start in 5th with your clutch pulled in. It's hard on things and something that doesn't happen in the real world (if you know what you're doing).

I've been running & racing the Rekluse since February with excellent performance & no maintenance. If you don't do anything stupid, it should last practically as long as a normal clutch under the same conditions.

I would be interested in a 2 ring 13.5:1 JE for the 99mm bore. Would they check all the specs and determine the wrist pin position and valve cut outs, or would someone who orders them have to do that? I don't want to be a guinea pig for that experiment, but I'm in if everything checks out. I've tried calling Mickey about it, but I can't get in touch with him.

I also would be interested in a 2 ring 13.5:1 - 13.8 JE piston for the 99mm bore.
Anyone else?

that's fine with me guys....like he said the 2 ringer is worth it...i have the 13 to 1 in mine now... i just have to watch the oil more often...no biggie.... the 2 ring starts easy also....a 13,8 to 1 from sparks is alot harder to kick over than my 13 to 1 cause of the rings....

does anyone have any specs on sparks x4 cam? or heard anything about this one

All r&d will be done before I get any pistons to anybody.

Is that the same thing as the Sparks race cam? If it is than it is the same thing as the sparks agressive but with about 2 more hp up top, its not worth 375 dollars or whatever they sell it for.

If you want top end!!! Then get the HRC cam!!!
for mid range!! Then get either the 2 stage Hotcam or the sparks agressive cam! B)

The 500cc piston with 2 compression rings and 13.5:1 compression I what i'd like. Lets get a list together to see how many people we have, I will be 1.

I would imagine that if we get enough people involved in advance: I could get both styles of pistons. I am not going to make money off this deal, just so you all know. I actually have 2 companies working on pistons (well maybe at this time I should say, pricing and availability). I will also contace a third.

I have no problem with that!! I would rather have one of my fellow bro's get the money than someone that doesn't give a darn thing about us. I want a 12.1 - 2 ring myself. Please keep me in mined!! :D Rico

Thanks KGB, Its very nice of you to get us set up like that! :D

I wouldnt mind getting a "12-1" 2 ringer Stock bore......

What type of piston is it.... "Cast" or "Forged"??

Practically all 4 stroke aftermarket pistons are forged.

I will be getting forged pistons. I believe these are available already Killer. Try Wiseco.

I've always been told not to get Wiseco. I was told there like durablue.
Is this true!! Gabe!!!

Wiseco has had various problems with their 2 stroke pistons, they also make some of the heavier 4 stroke pistons -- I try to stay away from them if possible. Their dome shapes also tend to have sharp edges which can lead to higher fuel octane requirements.

JE and Wiseco are owned by the same parent company - but they definitely have two entirely different products.

Ross also makes quality pistons -- they are my choice for the 400EX.

JE makes the 99mm pistons for FST - it's a quality piston as well.

There are also numerous options you can get when having custom pistons made - keep us updated KGB.

I was pretty much told the same thing. Basically, Ross was one of the best and JE is right behind them. But, never get a Wiseco because there at the bottom of the list as far as pistons are concered. It's funny though,,,,,,Tim Farr uses the Wiseco piston!! But, then again, his sponsored. So he has to use what they tell him to use!!

Thanks, gabe!! :D