2006 TRX450R - No Start - All in spec?? Losing my MIND! - Honda TRX Forums: Honda TRX 450R Forum
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:57 AM Thread Starter
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2006 TRX450R - No Start - All in spec?? Losing my MIND!

Hey all...

Have been lurking the forums for a while as my buddy has a '06 TRX450R and I do a lot of his work for him. As a little background on the quad, he bought it in need of a starter clutch replacement. We did the job early part of last year and all was just swell. Started no problem, ran great. After a few weekends of riding, it began to get a bit harder to start. I checked the valve clearence and it was out of spec. Although they were a decent jump in shim size, it got her running and starting at the push of a button, no problem. I advised that it would soon need a valve replacement on the head, once it start no-starting again.

My friend LOVES to be on 2 wheels. And I dont think that helps the head or internal components any... It started to have trouble starting again, but would bump start no problem. At some point, the electric starter was no longer turning the motor over at all and it seems he took it a bit too far as it got to the point of needing to be towed by another quad to get it to start.... terrible... I know... I was absent all of this abusive time.

When it finally got into my hands, it had to be pulled to be started, and barely ran. When it did, it sounded TERRIBLE from the right side case. I know these are super noisy, but this sounded like a marble bouncing around inside. Upon removing the right side case, I noticed that once of the gears had a entire section of teeth missing out of it. (GEAR, BALANCER DRIVE (40T) (13415-MEY-670) is the part number...) I order a new one of these guys and install it....

Still wont even turn over. I give the starter a few whacks with a hammer like its a '94 Bronco, and it turns briefly, but soon dies to never turn again... I remove the starter, bench test it... and its shot. Fine. New starter is ordered, installed, and whalaaa. She turns over. Cranks like a SOB but no start. I check valve clearences knowing they are out of spec, and as I try to get them back into spec come to conclusion that they are too far out and need to be replaced.

Dissassemble head and components and find exactly what I thought I would. Stuck, gunked up valves that were so stuck I had to soak and let sit before forcing them out. See pic of one of the intake valves below.....



I order all new valves, springs, cotter clips, oil gaskets, new head gasket, and re-assemble. Re-adjust the valves and shims, all in spec (.011 & .006... Decomp also set to .025)

While disassembling the motor, I notice that I lined up the timing mark on the starter gear with the mark on the case..... but the piston is not at TDC. (When I first did starter clutch, i never noticed the punch mark on that gear, but I thought it could only go on one way bc of flat spot on gear shaft?) I turn the gears until the piston is just below the surface of the head, just before it begins its downstroke. I re-assemble the motor with the new valves and components installed, and get no start. Cranks and cranks, but no start.

I re-time the motor with the timing set back on that punch mark on the case and gear... Nothing. Same thing, cranks like crazy but wont start. This timing seems even weaker compression than the first time so I compression test it. 30psi.... I put it back to the punch mark and compression test it, barely 20psi.... I drive myself crazy trying to get it now into correct timing at TDC by spinning the starter gear with an allen key and checking mark on LEFT case (since punch mark is not correct appearently) and line it up with the ]T. Have spark plug removed to make sure im on compression stroke and can shine light into hole to see piston is close to top of cylinder. I compression test it now and BAM... 55psi. Perfect, just as spec calls for. Timing marks are on point, valve shims are all in spec, decomp is in spec.






Still.... Get.... No start.....

Ok fine..... back to basics.... Lets check spark.....





Yup... Brand new spark plug... and plenty of nice bright blue spark....

I had already cleaned the carb, and changed out old gas that had been sitting but you know what.... I disassembled the whole carb again and cleaned it and checked all the slides and put it back together.... You know what I got?? NOTHING... Still no start.

Now I bypass the carb. Remove carb and spray starter fluid right into the carb chamber. Try to start. Nada. Barely a pop. CRANKS LIKE A SOB. Sounds solid other NOT F'ing starting......

Im now stuck and here asking for some help... Ive looked into things like the carb switch, but Im getting spark so that bypass isnt needed. (i dont think)
TPS switch shouldnt affect starting
brand new spark plug, and fresh 93 gas...
55psi compression (Manual calls for 50-56)


Thanks in advance guys... Ive had my friends machine for far too long trying to sort this out for him. Wayyyy to many hours put into this debacle... Weather is getting nice and we need to get out there!!

Last edited by Dan Chickery; 04-21-2017 at 10:07 AM.
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 05:45 AM
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Im sure youve looked at this but I gotta say it.....the engine stop switch is set to run right?
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 07:18 AM Thread Starter
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:)

Yes. It is getting spark which means it is functioning properly.

Even shut it to OFF position to make sure it was cutting the spark and it is.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Chickery View Post
While disassembling the motor, I notice that I lined up the timing mark on the starter gear with the mark on the case..... but the piston is not at TDC. (When I first did starter clutch, i never noticed the punch mark on that gear, but I thought it could only go on one way bc of flat spot on gear shaft?) I turn the gears until the piston is just below the surface of the head, just before it begins its downstroke. I re-assemble the motor with the new valves and components installed, and get no start. Cranks and cranks, but no start.

I re-time the motor with the timing set back on that punch mark on the case and gear... Nothing. Same thing, cranks like crazy but wont start. This timing seems even weaker compression than the first time so I compression test it. 30psi.... I put it back to the punch mark and compression test it, barely 20psi.... I drive myself crazy trying to get it now into correct timing at TDC by spinning the starter gear with an allen key and checking mark on LEFT case (since punch mark is not correct appearently) and line it up with the ]T. Have spark plug removed to make sure im on compression stroke and can shine light into hole to see piston is close to top of cylinder. I compression test it now and BAM... 55psi. Perfect, just as spec calls for. Timing marks are on point, valve shims are all in spec, decomp is in spec.

I'm getting a little lost here. I have never seen the marks be wrong on the crank gear. But if they are on wrong and you line the balancer dots up then that part would be off, should not affect starting but needs to be addressed. I guess I am a little lost when you say you are putting it at the punch mark and compression test it, you are turning the motor over to compression test it correct? Your pictures are not showing up for me, may just be the computer so I can't see what you have going on there. 60 is generally the sweet spot for good starting on the compression. Also make sure the plug wire is all connected good. I have seen these loosen up and show good when you had the wire out looking for spark but when you put the cap back on the plug it didn't have a good connection and wasn't sparking.


I know you said I popped wen you sprayed carb cleaner in it doe it pop any other time hen cranking?

04 450r
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
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I'm getting a little lost here. I have never seen the marks be wrong on the crank gear.
I thought it could only go on one way if i recall correctly... Thats why i was lost with low compression on that timing. Thats why I went with the ]T on the balancer.


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I guess I am a little lost when you say you are putting it at the punch mark and compression test it, you are turning the motor over to compression test it correct?
Yes I have a video of holding open the throttle and cranking for 5 turns and having 60psi on gauge.


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Your pictures are not showing up for me, may just be the computer so I can't see what you have going on there.
Should be fixed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke416ex View Post
60 is generally the sweet spot for good starting on the compression. Also make sure the plug wire is all connected good. I have seen these loosen up and show good when you had the wire out looking for spark but when you put the cap back on the plug it didn't have a good connection and wasn't sparking.
Ill look into the plug and make sure its getting a good connection.

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I know you said I popped wen you sprayed carb cleaner in it doe it pop any other time hen cranking?
No. Doesnt even make much of a tone difference when holding throttle open either. Usually it gets deeper and thumpier. When I hold throttle open, it just slows down turning a little.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:01 PM
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Few things...

You can't just put new valves in these heads without cutting the seats, especially with 06+ Ti intakes. I'd cross the green plug under the left front fender to make sure it isn't losing spark at any point in time. Next, you said that you had the carb and slide apart, I'd make sure the slide plate isn't upside down and you're not blocking off the air gap. And, these are a wasted spark motor, so don't worry about the "compression" stroke, as long as you install the cam at TDC, you're fine.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Few things...

You can't just put new valves in these heads without cutting the seats, especially with 06+ Ti intakes. I'd cross the green plug under the left front fender to make sure it isn't losing spark at any point in time. Next, you said that you had the carb and slide apart, I'd make sure the slide plate isn't upside down and you're not blocking off the air gap. And, these are a wasted spark motor, so don't worry about the "compression" stroke, as long as you install the cam at TDC, you're fine.
Even if Im getting solid compression they still needed to be cut? The seats didnt look bad to naked eye. I don't have the tools for cutting valve seats unfortunately. I cleaned the seat really well, but did not cut them.

Im 99% sure the slide is in correctly and air gap visible.

Im going to solder the carb plug wires tonight and retry.

thanks for the help!!!
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Chickery View Post
Even if Im getting solid compression they still needed to be cut? The seats didnt look bad to naked eye. I don't have the tools for cutting valve seats unfortunately. I cleaned the seat really well, but did not cut them.

Im 99% sure the slide is in correctly and air gap visible.

Im going to solder the carb plug wires tonight and retry.

thanks for the help!!!

The valve in your picture looks cupped to me, so it's going to smoke those new Ti valves in a matter of a few rides. The seats have to be cut every time.

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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The valve in your picture looks cupped to me, so it's going to smoke those new Ti valves in a matter of a few rides. The seats have to be cut every time.
Wow... really? That blows...

It should still start though no? Looks like I need to go buy some parts then and do the valve seats.

How do you tell its "cupped"?
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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bump
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 09:33 AM
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The valve should continue to curve out where it sets on the seat. If it is cupped it will curve in and have a sharp edge to it. You should be able to hold an exhaust valve up next to an intake and see if it is cupped as the exhaust usually don't cup. It is really easy to hold a new valve up to an old one and see it.

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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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The valve should continue to curve out where it sets on the seat. If it is cupped it will curve in and have a sharp edge to it. You should be able to hold an exhaust valve up next to an intake and see if it is cupped as the exhaust usually don't cup. It is really easy to hold a new valve up to an old one and see it.
Ok ill have to take a look and compare to the exhaust valves and see what they look like....

Even still.... This shouldn't stop the machine from running.

Fresh gas. Tried removing tank and using filler hose directly into the carb. Felt like I was flooding it so I poured out tank and put fresh gas in tank and petcock and tried that way. Same thing. Nothing.

The tone of the motor turning over does not change at all holding throttle fully open or if its closed. Usually it gets a deeper, thumpier tone to it??

Spark plug cap is DEF clicking onto plug while in the cylinder.

Im getting 60psi compression. So rings cant be shot. It also wasnt burning tons of oil or smoking or smelling like oil while riding. There is a new headgasket and none of the fluids are mixing before and after my work.


With the timing set on the punch mark on starter gear on right side, I get 28psi and it doesnt seem as strong of cranking power/motion while trying to start.

With the timing set on the ]T on the left side case, I get solid 60psi and it cranks like a mo fo while trying to start.

Thanks for any and all the help fellas.
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 11:23 AM
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You're not a guy that likes to listen, are you? Why continue to try to get it to start when you know it needs a valvejob? Do you not care about your buddy's money and his brand new parts?

"I check valve clearences knowing they are out of spec, and as I try to get them back into spec come to conclusion that they are too far out and need to be replaced."

IT NEEDS A VALVEJOB. And probably +1 valves to get the stock installed height back.

Also, with an adjustable decompression assembly, you can make it have whatever compression possible on a compression test. A leakdown test will be the only thing to tell you how much the valves and rings are leaking.

The OEM crank, crank gears, and starter clutch assembly are double keyed, so it's impossible for them to not be on correctly, and at TDC. I always set the cam timing off the punch mark, so I would double check and triple check what you have or post a picture so someone can double check it.

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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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The valves are in perfect spec after putting a whole new valvetrain in....They were too far out when I FIRST OPENED IT UP, which led to me buying and installing a whole new valvetrain... I dont listen, you dont read. So were good! :)

The "adjustable" decompression assembly is at exact spec that the manual calls for. .025 / .014, so it wasnt adjusted to make my compression whatever i wanted..

Ok.. so +1 valves are something I dont know about. The 2 valve jobs I have done on other machines did not require that. Ill have to check the "valve height" I guess.

I had asked before if the gears were "keyed" or could only go on one way and no one responded to that. So now that rules some things out. Thank you for clarifying. From here out I will line up along the punch mark on starter gear. I must say though, when I had head off the first time, the piston DEF didnt look like TDC with it on the punch mark. So now I will line up, remove and take a picture so I can get confirmation along the away.

Im going to take the head back off in the coming days and re-face the valve seats... or try to.
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