DIY Head Gasket Changing??

[ThatLanceGuy]

Hey everyone, new member here. Bring on the newb banging! I recently purchased an 04' 450r. I took it out to Sabine ATV Park (northwest Louisiana) for my first ride with it. We were riding slow in a bunch most of the day due to dust/large group of riders. I was able to get some stiff thumb stretching/heart pounding sections of the ride in. I noticed antifreeze on the front and top of my fuel tank. The fan wasnt on at the time, but does work. I was wheelie'n just before i noticed it. Happened twice that day. After researching and getting side tracked on this bada$$ forum the past few days and nights, I came to the conclusion that it could be either my radiator cap or possibly head gasket. I am headed home from South Texas in the AM and want to check the gasket tomorrow, but dont know the steps. Sadly i wasnt able to find any write ups/details/videos on removing the head gasket.

Bike is mostly stock with an HRC kit and full Curtis Sparks.

[bdoyle52]

Service manual. Best 40 bucks you will spend, i think there are even some online ones in spme peoples sigs

[ghott]

Give your bike a good once-over before pulling the head to make sure you actually have a blown head gasket. If you do...here's the info you need:

Rockin Horse Web

click on 'TRX How-To Guides'

click on High-comp piston install (follow the directions that you need)

[ThatLanceGuy]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

[unruler]

Is the cap on the overflow tank? It's under your hood.

[ThatLanceGuy]

Yea, the cover is on the overflow tank. I'm going to grab another radiator cap this afternoon from a local shop. Should i stay with the same psi cap or go higher? correct me if im wrong, but is the stock cap 15 psi?

[rocksalt]

Drain fluids and look for milky color. If not chances are its not the head gasket (still could be but less chance there is).

Make sure your fan comes on and the radiator fins are clear and clean.

What can really help is a new cap with higher pressure blow off and use distilled water and water wetter only. Here in the south there are no worries of freezing and pure water will cool much better than antifreeze. The water wetter lubricates so no worries of seal damage.

Good luck

[ThatLanceGuy]

Im planning on doing fluid changes today, so that works out. You suggesting a 20 psi cap?

[450RRR]

Originally Posted by rocksalt

Drain fluids and look for milky color. If not chances are its not the head gasket (still could be but less chance there is).

Make sure your fan comes on and the radiator fins are clear and clean.

What can really help is a new cap with higher pressure blow off and use distilled water and water wetter only. Here in the south there are no worries of freezing and pure water will cool much better than antifreeze. The water wetter lubricates so no worries of seal damage.

Good luck

Huh? first off... doubtful you will find a HIGHER PSI rad cap.... the cooling system is designed for X amount of PSI... period. Second off... RARELY does the rad cap fail... when I say RARELY... I mean I have NEVER seen it happen in all my years of racing and modding machines... third...RARELY will a blown head gasket cause milky oil... the reason is simple: The combustion chamber has FAR GREATER PRESSURE inside of it, then does the cooling system. This means when you ride, gas pressures from inside the combustion chamber travel INTO the cooling system, not vice-versa... this in turn creates a whole LOT of pressure inside the cooling system which forces coolant past the 15psi rad cap and out the overflow... this is the MOST COMMON symptom of a blown head gasket... remember, head gaskets BLOW because of the extreme pressure inside the combustion chamber, and that pressure wants to LEAVE... via any opening it can... which is sometimes past a weak/failing head gasket... it is quite RARE that the head gasket would simply fail between the oil passages and water passages... yes, it CAN happen, but it is RARE...and only in extreme cases where someone continues to ride and ride knowing they have a blown head gasket....

My advice to you, is to follow what Ghott had written previously... check all other aspects FIRST... cuzz replacing the head gasket is a chore, and you do need some mechanical skills and tools to do so...just keep that in mind... you cannot visually INSPECT the head gasket in MOST cases and determine this.... it is usually diagnosed via symptoms, which as I said, would be coolant being blown past the rad cap....an easy way to determine this is to ensure your coolant level in your overflow/recovery tank is at proper level.... if it is OVER filled, you can simply remove the rad cap, and blow into the overflow tank via air pressure which will force the coolant back into the radiator....once at proper level, and rad is filled, take the bike out for a HARD ride....if you notice the coolant level RISING in the tank, and eventually blowing OUT of the tank.... 99% sure it is a blown head gasket... also, the fan RARELY comes on during riding... again, it does work, but only after HIGH temps are reached... which is quite rare on these machines...as their cooling system is VERY CAPABLE of keeping them cool....

Yes, pure water is best for cooling... not 100% sure 'water wetter' or other 'water THINNERS' has enough lubricant to stop the 'mechanical seal' from destroying itself....Glycol, which is in anti-freeze, is beneficial to protect your seals... but yes, pure water is the best for cooling the engine....just not the best for the seals....

Sorry, didnt mean to step on toes... just sharing my experiences... jmho, g

[rocksalt]

Originally Posted by 450RRR

Huh? first off... doubtful you will find a HIGHER PSI rad cap.... the cooling system is designed for X amount of PSI... period. Second off... RARELY does the rad cap fail... when I say RARELY... I mean I have NEVER seen it happen in all my years of racing and modding machines... third...RARELY will a blown head gasket cause milky oil... the reason is simple: The combustion chamber has FAR GREATER PRESSURE inside of it, then does the cooling system. This means when you ride, gas pressures from inside the combustion chamber travel INTO the cooling system, not vice-versa... this in turn creates a whole LOT of pressure inside the cooling system which forces coolant past the 15psi rad cap and out the overflow... this is the MOST COMMON symptom of a blown head gasket... remember, head gaskets BLOW because of the extreme pressure inside the combustion chamber, and that pressure wants to LEAVE... via any opening it can... which is sometimes past a weak/failing head gasket... it is quite RARE that the head gasket would simply fail between the oil passages and water passages... yes, it CAN happen, but it is RARE...and only in extreme cases where someone continues to ride and ride knowing they have a blown head gasket....

My advice to you, is to follow what Ghott had written previously... check all other aspects FIRST... cuzz replacing the head gasket is a chore, and you do need some mechanical skills and tools to do so...just keep that in mind... you cannot visually INSPECT the head gasket in MOST cases and determine this.... it is usually diagnosed via symptoms, which as I said, would be coolant being blown past the rad cap....an easy way to determine this is to ensure your coolant level in your overflow/recovery tank is at proper level.... if it is OVER filled, you can simply remove the rad cap, and blow into the overflow tank via air pressure which will force the coolant back into the radiator....once at proper level, and rad is filled, take the bike out for a HARD ride....if you notice the coolant level RISING in the tank, and eventually blowing OUT of the tank.... 99% sure it is a blown head gasket... also, the fan RARELY comes on during riding... again, it does work, but only after HIGH temps are reached... which is quite rare on these machines...as their cooling system is VERY CAPABLE of keeping them cool....

Yes, pure water is best for cooling... not 100% sure 'water wetter' or other 'water THINNERS' has enough lubricant to stop the 'mechanical seal' from destroying itself....Glycol, which is in anti-freeze, is beneficial to protect your seals... but yes, pure water is the best for cooling the engine....just not the best for the seals....

Sorry, didnt mean to step on toes... just sharing my experiences... jmho, g

Riding slow in the trails can cause overheating. I believe the OP described he was riding slow with a group. With no fan working boilover can occur. The fan will come on at idle after riding and stopping for a minute.

Rare to get water in the crankcase? Guess again. I agree a blown head gasket does not always present itself as water in the oil because it depends on how bad the leak is. Once the engine stops running the water has the ability to leak into the combustion area and into the crankcase. It won't take much water to turn the oil into milk. If pressure can get to the coolant the coolant can get to the oil and eventually it will.

Head gaskets fail due to installation practices, not because of pressure. Uneven surfaces or improper torque, mostly, due to methods.
All fasteners must be lubricated as well as the washers. Head must be torqued in steps and a good quality gasket like OEM or Cometic.
They can fail due to overheating and warping of the mating surfaces or studs that have fatugued and don't stretch at the same rate.

Water wetter is an additive that reduces the surface tension of water. Notice how water forms a droplet? WW will reduce the ability of water to cling to itself and provide more surface contact to remove heat and thus reduce localized boiling. If you want more lubrication, add 10% glycol.

Does Redline "Water Wetter" Really Work?

Cooling System Additives - Turbo and High-Tech Performance Magazine

Trx radiator cap in Motorcycle Parts - Compare Prices, Read Reviews and Buy at Bizrate.

Notice how i didn't use any caps? i don't need to yell to prove my point.

[450RRR]

I am familiar with cooling additives and their effect... they are simply water 'thinners'.. regardless of their advertising.. and have been around for a long time. I am even more aware of head gasket issues. If you think the 450R fan will come on after a minute of idling....your dead wrong... my bike can idle till the tank runs out..and the fan will NOT come on... cuz the bike wont overheat. There has been thread after thread from people noticing that their fan NEVER comes on.....Yes, a completely blown out head gasket CAN allow water to leak back into the combustion chamber after the engine is shut off... this is caused by the 15psi pressure inside the cooling system...and NO pressure coming from the CC.... however, yes, this is quite rare.... think about the amount of pressure inside the combustion chamber upon ignition... (then think about using Nitrous..lol) those pressures are hundreds times greater than the cooling system... so that head gasket has to be HIGHLY DAMAGED in order for the mere 15psi to force coolant onto the piston and eventually past the rings and into the crankcase in order for this condition to occur... and yes, it is rare. Usually occurs in cars when blown head gaskets tend to go unnoticed for a long period of time... cuz most of us dont go out and check our vehicles nearly as often as we check our TOYS, so we tend to run them after damage has occurred..... its just a fact of life... "head gaskets fail due to installation practices, not due to pressure"???? so a new engine has never blown a head gasket? obviously the manufacturer knows how to install a head gasket.. even if you believe I dont... there really isnt too much knowledge to installing a new head gasket... clean off the old... make sure both mating surfaces are FLAT... and install new.... using proper torque and Chris Cross pattern..... its simple.. and HIGH Pressures DO CAUSE HEAD GASKET FAILURES... ask anyone using Nitrous, Superchargers, or worse yes... DIESELS..... those types of "pressures" are killers on head gaskets....and are the #1 cause of their failure... not installation practices...

at any rate... just my opinion.... the viewers can decide for themselves... g

[rocksalt]

If you think the 450R fan will come on after a minute of idling....your dead wrong...

That's not what I said.

The fan will come on at idle after riding and stopping for a minute.

Maybe it's ambient temps here in Texas but our 450's fan's come on.

"head gaskets fail due to installation practices, not due to pressure"???? so a new engine has never blown a head gasket? obviously the manufacturer knows how to install a head gasket.. even if you believe I dont... there really isnt too much knowledge to installing a new head gasket... clean off the old... make sure both mating surfaces are FLAT... and install new.... using proper torque and Chris Cross pattern..... its simple.. and HIGH Pressures DO CAUSE HEAD GASKET FAILURES... ask anyone using Nitrous, Superchargers, or worse yes... DIESELS..... those types of "pressures" are killers on head gaskets....and are the #1 cause of their failure... not installation practices...

even if you believe I dont

This is not about you. I have no opinion one way or the other

and HIGH Pressures DO CAUSE HEAD GASKET FAILURES... ask anyone using Nitrous, Superchargers, or worse yes... DIESELS..... those types of "pressures" are killers on head gaskets....and are the #1 cause of their failure... not installation practices...

The combustion process produces 1500+PSI without the use of chargers (additional 500+PSI at 14PSI. with a 3.77" bore)
I have never changed the head gasket in my 444CID powerstroke or my supercharged cooper. I have 125,000 miles on my coop and 225,000 miles on my F250.
-is there an expiration date on my diesel's head gasket?

Pressure is the last thing that causes blown head gaskets.
It's the uneven stretching of the head studs or overheating that causes head gaskets to fail when the gaskets are installed properly. Pressure may be the force behind finding the failure of another component, but it is not the root cause.

There is more to installing a head gasket than a flat surface. It is extremely important to torque in stages and lubricate the components. Why? Even torque must be applied to all the nuts holding the head in order to stretch the studs an even amount and put them in tension. When the cylinder pressure goes high the studs will stretch an additional amount and this must be even between all 4 studs. Uneven stretch will cause head gasket failure.

While I agree a milky oil is not the tell tale head gasket failure test:

Drain fluids and look for milky color. If not chances are its not the head gasket (still could be but less chance there is).

I did leave the door open here...
The easiest way to test for failure is with;
Blown Head Gasket Diagnostic - Tricks Of The Trade - Import Tuner Magazine
or a hydrocarbon sniffer.
Sometimes you can smell the radiator cap, with a keen nose, and detect spent gasses in the coolant system.

Since the coolant was seen:

I noticed antifreeze on the front and top of my fuel tank.

It would appear there is a leak in the overflow vent line going back to the reservoir or the cap itself.

It get's very hot here in Texas and a good cooling system is needed to keep these machines alive. I have had good success with oversize radiators(crf450R with no fan to help), distilled water, water wetter and a 1.6bar radiator cap.

If you had plain water in your cooling system with a 15 pound pressure cap the water would boil @ 257 degrees. If you had a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water the coolant would boil @ 265 degrees with a 15 pound cap.
I like to raise the boiling point of water, with pressure, and increase the thermal conductivity by using distilled water and it seems to work well.

[maddog419]

Backfireing with fooling issue can be h3ll on head gaskets also...
A leakdown test would also tell you what your looking for...

GL

[nuckinfuts]

Originally Posted by rocksalt

I have never changed the head gasket in my 444CID powerstroke or my supercharged cooper. I have 125,000 miles on my coop and 225,000 miles on my F250.
-is there an expiration date on my diesel's head gasket?

Boy I sure wish we all knew the answer to that question. Do you have it chipped? Do you tow heavy trailers? Maybe the installation of the chips on my brothers, father's, and friends p-strokes was wrong??

Pressure is the last thing that causes blown head gaskets. It's the uneven stretching of the head studs or overheating that causes head gaskets to fail when the gaskets are installed properly. Pressure may be the force behind finding the failure of another component, but it is not the root cause.

Really?? So then the additional pressure of the turbo on my bike isn't the root cause for the stack of blown gaskets I've acquired over the last few years? If the studs stretching is the root cause for a blown gasket, why doesn't it blow right at the radius point where the stud is if that's the maximum point of stretch? It's always in between where the aluminum allows more flex to release the cylinder pressure. I can guarantee the studs in my bike aren't the root cause.

There is more to installing a head gasket than a flat surface. It is extremely important to torque in stages and lubricate the components. Why? Even torque must be applied to all the nuts holding the head in order to stretch the studs an even amount and put them in tension. When the cylinder pressure goes high the studs will stretch an additional amount and this must be even between all 4 studs. Uneven stretch will cause head gasket failure.

Ya, engine basics. That's why you torque in stages to ensure that they're as close to the same amount so that the tension difference between each stud theoretically is the error percentage associated with the torque wrench itself. Even lubricating all washers and threads won't eliminate static friction so ensuring that the end torque is reached while under kinetic friction is a critical part to maintaining equal torque.

Since the coolant was seen:
It would appear there is a leak in the overflow vent line going back to the reservoir or the cap itself.

My first indication that I have a blown head gasket is coolant spewing from the overflow vent line which usually ends up on the tank and frame. If I catch it soon enough, the coolant level in the res tank will slowly increase indicating that the cylinder pressure is forcing coolant from the system back into the tank under the cap.

It get's very hot here in Texas and a good cooling system is needed to keep these machines alive. I have had good success with oversize radiators(crf450R with no fan to help), distilled water, water wetter and a 1.6bar radiator cap.

We ride the dunes in 100º weather all the time, never had an overheat issue. Must be the floor of heellll out there!

[nuckinfuts]

Originally Posted by maddog419

Backfireing with fooling issue can be h3ll on head gaskets also...
A leakdown test would also tell you what your looking for...

GL

All the pressure from the backfire escapes quickly through the intake hence the pop. Doesn't affect head gaskets. Usually if the head gasket is blown, it takes a lot more pressure than needed for a leak down test to see the resultant leak. Air pressure should make it past the rings before the gasket unless there's a hole burned completely through!