05 450R head porting pics and data. - Honda TRX Forums: Honda TRX 450R Forum

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Old 02-27-2012, 04:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 05 450R head porting pics and data.

A buddy of mine who races XC gave me 2 junk heads to practice on. One stock, one that they ported, and one to port for him to race with this season. I have only messed with the stock practice head so far, and I documented pretty much everything. I have 16-20 hours into this intake port, and it will never even run. But I found huge flow increases, and I forever have a template to refer back to.

Here's some pics of what I changed.

Stock




Here's the combustion chamber. One side of the intake is unshrouded, the other is stock. Easy to see the difference. Once I had the chamber finished, this head flowed better than his ported head at lower lifts, and as good as his ported head at higher lifts.



Here's the finished intake port.




I couldn't get rid of the valve guides completely. Because it was a junk head, I pushed the limit, and broke through the spring seat trying to eliminate as much guide as possible.




This one is unfinished, but the shape is there.






I added epoxy to the short side radius and port floor. This was tricky to balance. It hurt flow first, and I gradually lowered it and layed it back until it helped. If I had only tried it once, I would have abandoned this idea because it hurt flow that bad, even at motoman's suggested 65% of valve diameter theory. Once I got it right, it helped flow from mid lift all the way to full lift.




For easy comparison, here's before and after






I have not figured out how to turn this into CFM readings yet, but here's the before and after data.

All tests were done at 20" of water (50/50 water and antifreeze actually) and I used a 2.507" orifice straight cut in 10 ga. steel.

Stock

Valve lift - Inclined manometer inches of water. (air flow)
.100" - 0.5"
.200" - 2"
.300" - 3.75"
.400" - 4"

My porting
.100" - 0.625"
.150" - 1.75"
.200" - 3"
.250" - 4.25"
.300" - 5.25"
.350" - 5.5"
.400" - 5.5"


I think lower lift flow would have been better with some different valves or a fresh valve seat cut. Stock valves were used, and I don't have any means of valve seat cutting right now. The stock valves just have one straight 45 degree seat.

The best part of all of this is that I got to add about as much material as I removed, so the power should improve from idle to redline, and this is for a XC bike. I can't wait to get the real one finished and see what it does on the dyno. The local tech school has a dyno, and we can rent it for donation. I think a bunch of us might rent it for a day and do some hard core tuning.



I thought you guys might be interested since it's 450R stuff. Questions, comments, arguements, tell me I'm ugly and can't read good, whatever.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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nice start
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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awesome work... and thanks for taking the time to share...

you are right, low lift gets a bump from backcut valves and multi angle race cut seats... something to look forward too then
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Nice work! Thanks for sharing, this is the reason I joined this site.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:12 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks guys! and you're welcome! Mixxer, I owe you some gratitude for all the tech you have posted around here. I don't think I would be at this point without it. I have had some help from a few others also, but your tech is the reason I ever started coming to this site.

After I get this head done, and possibly a few more for some more guys that the owner of this head races with, My own 470 Z head is next. I'm going for higher rpm power with that one. I'm going to try running it with a HSR 45, and porting to match it. We will see how that turns out. It will be the extreme opposite of what it's been to this point. If it's too much, I will set that head aside till It becomes a 490 again, and see sredrum about boring my FCR. How big are they getting those things now days?
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thanks for posting all the data and pictures!
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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looks decent. myself - along with most builders - add epoxy to the roof of the 05 ports instead of the floor for many reasons; one which you have already found - not very much material between the guide bosses and spring seat. also 65% is WAY too small of a choke. add atleast 15% to that to get decent high lift numbers. looks like a good start though, I see the ole dremel in one of your pics - she'll burn out soon lol
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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This is quite interesting and I agree with the others about the epoxy placement. In fact I would have done the complete opposite and taken the epoxy from the floor to the roof. Even though it has picked up flow potential low-mid lifts, it may not be as responsive as you expect. I myself have tried epoxy to the floor with a choke point of approx 68% to enhance low-mid and did not work at all even though the throttle response was instantaneous. I found it to be very inefficient for velocity through that choke point at almost any rpm. After an afternoon of test riding, the head came off that night. I opened the ports back up to approx 80% and it was a night and day difference. This was a mild compression, early HRC build with factory valves. It also picked up an impressive amount of bottom-mid range power and the top end came alive. The next test is to come this weekend as they've been opened once again to about 85% with a different port layout. Should be interesting.
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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thanks for sharing
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:08 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattonln View Post
looks decent. myself - along with most builders - add epoxy to the roof of the 05 ports instead of the floor for many reasons; one which you have already found - not very much material between the guide bosses and spring seat. also 65% is WAY too small of a choke. add atleast 15% to that to get decent high lift numbers. looks like a good start though, I see the ole dremel in one of your pics - she'll burn out soon lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfuts View Post
This is quite interesting and I agree with the others about the epoxy placement. In fact I would have done the complete opposite and taken the epoxy from the floor to the roof. Even though it has picked up flow potential low-mid lifts, it may not be as responsive as you expect. I myself have tried epoxy to the floor with a choke point of approx 68% to enhance low-mid and did not work at all even though the throttle response was instantaneous. I found it to be very inefficient for velocity through that choke point at almost any rpm. After an afternoon of test riding, the head came off that night. I opened the ports back up to approx 80% and it was a night and day difference. This was a mild compression, early HRC build with factory valves. It also picked up an impressive amount of bottom-mid range power and the top end came alive. The next test is to come this weekend as they've been opened once again to about 85% with a different port layout. Should be interesting.


My thought process with the epoxy on the floor was to keep the overall port higher in the head so the long side radius, as well as the short side, are more gradual, with no abrupt changes, and the port is more down draft at the valve so it will try to use the whole valve. I did back off the choke from 65%, but also I widened the port in that area big time, so only the height is around 70%, but the actual area is probably closer to 80% When I first put the epoxy on the floor, it hurt, but then once I lowered it and laid the ssr back to where it is now, it picked up flow from mid lift all the way to full lift, over what it was without the epoxy. Those were the highest readings I pulled through that port at all. Also, when I was done, the port cc'd the exact same as it did before I ported it, so with all that air flow gain, there should be no velocity lost at all, if anything it will pick up because more air will be moving through the port.


I appreciate the input! I still have another head to work with, I might have to try putting some epoxy on the roof in that one and see what happens. Thanks for sharing that with me!
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:25 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFM-z440 View Post
My thought process with the epoxy on the floor was to keep the overall port higher in the head so the long side radius, as well as the short side, are more gradual, with no abrupt changes, and the port is more down draft at the valve so it will try to use the whole valve. I did back off the choke from 65%, but also I widened the port in that area big time, so only the height is around 70%, but the actual area is probably closer to 80% When I first put the epoxy on the floor, it hurt, but then once I lowered it and laid the ssr back to where it is now, it picked up flow from mid lift all the way to full lift, over what it was without the epoxy. Those were the highest readings I pulled through that port at all. Also, when I was done, the port cc'd the exact same as it did before I ported it, so with all that air flow gain, there should be no velocity lost at all, if anything it will pick up because more air will be moving through the port.


I appreciate the input! I still have another head to work with, I might have to try putting some epoxy on the roof in that one and see what happens. Thanks for sharing that with me!


That was my exact thinking on it as well. Raise the floor to increase velocity higher in the port in attempt for a straighter shot at the back of the valves. However, you’re one step ahead of me back when I performed this test in that you have a way to test the flow characteristics of the port. I just gave it a shot in the dark, bolted it up and went out riding; no flow testing. I was disappointed but at the same time the results were more meaningful to me as to what didn’t work so overall it was a valid and valuable test.

If you’re seeing an airflow increase at the same cc port, then velocity must increase. I really wish I had a flow bench to start testing some of my stuff but I’m extremely time restricted. Keep up the great work and I look forward to reading up your results!
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfuts View Post
That was my exact thinking on it as well. Raise the floor to increase velocity higher in the port in attempt for a straighter shot at the back of the valves. However, youíre one step ahead of me back when I performed this test in that you have a way to test the flow characteristics of the port. I just gave it a shot in the dark, bolted it up and went out riding; no flow testing. I was disappointed but at the same time the results were more meaningful to me as to what didnít work so overall it was a valid and valuable test.

If youíre seeing an airflow increase at the same cc port, then velocity must increase. I really wish I had a flow bench to start testing some of my stuff but Iím extremely time restricted. Keep up the great work and I look forward to reading up your results!
Thanks man! I appreciate that! I will say that the epoxy on the floor, and the shape of the ssr was a tricky thing to get right. My first attempt failed. It took me about 3 tries to get that right, but I knew the potential was there, because I played with adding some clay first, and found some results with that. My first attempt was somewhat motoman induced with the whole 65% idea. That's allegedly what worked for him, but that's just a reference to valve diameter, not port area. It gave you a guideline as far as height, but it really depends on the width of the port, because you still have to fit all that air through that area. I did widen the the port quite a bit, especially at my new floor height. My thinking there is that if I slow the air down in that area (it doesn't have as far to travel on the short side anyways) it will stay with the SSR at higher engine speeds. I don't know if my bench pulls enough air to put that theory to a proper test, but it makes sense logically, and the fact that it flowed much better when I was done than it did with all the same work but no epoxy, points towards that as well. I think...

I'm new to this, but I've nerded out on the theories for a long time. I wish I would have done this years ago, but I wouldn't have known what to do with it
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I've read a lot about the 06+ port. How much different are the? Does anyone have any pics of one of those?
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Stock 06 port

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Old 02-28-2012, 11:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Well I'm working on the real head this time, and I'm doing a much more careful job. This head is already out flowing the one in the pictures above actually. If I did the math right, I'm finding a 16% average gain over the head he used to run, which just had a little clean up. I haven't put any epoxy in it yet. I ordered some z-spar today. Last time the epoxy helped a little too.

Last edited by CFM; 03-01-2012 at 02:18 AM.
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