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Good Deal On A Rossier & My Biuld

5K views 37 replies 8 participants last post by  RyanW 
#1 ·
Hope some of you all find this interesting I just wanted to hear some Responses see what you all think plus I'm bored and wanna share some of my Info why not threads are fun to communicate and get some Constructive Criticism from other who may know more then me ha.

First thing I wanted to throw out there, I got a killer deal on a brand New Rossier Muffler, head pipe was not with it kinda sucks, but not a big deal because I have a side plan for that I'll get to that later in this topic. Story is the guy I bought it from found it in a Storage Action that he won, he did not know how much it was worth as far as I am concerned Rossier Engineering is a high quality pipe right up there with Dasa & Sparks and I certainly wasn't gonna pass that up! I asked him if he'll take 100 for it, he took it. **** good deal right, it barley has a scratch on it.


It could not be any more of perfect timing right now because I just completely ripped my engine out of my 05 TRX450R to do a Full build "Mid high Performance build" so since the Rossier Muffler doesn't have the head Pipe I am gonna see if Racers Edge will build me a Custom head pipe since I live 15 Miles from their shop.

What I am doing for my Build I won't leave you all hanging because I know I would wanna know whats being built.

Here are the mods. I'll also add the component with specs.

Cylinder Works 478 Big bore 10:5.1 Piston
Epoxy Ported Head "high Velocity Porting & .030 Decked Off The Head"
OEM head gasket .026 Inches Thickness
Kibble White Valve Springs
Stage 3 Hot Cam
41mm FCR Carburetor "off a 07 CRF450R With TPS adapted Correctly"
Hot Rods Crank "Stock Stroke 64mm with Welded Crank Pin"

I think I'm gonna also get a Dynatek ECU and toss the Big Gun Box I currently have.


My Guess on my HP I hope to be in the High 50's Low 60's... Maybe I'm guessing to high. But I will see if John at Racers Edge will let me take video and be in there for a Dyno run or 2 when it's done, if anyone is Interested let me know I'll keep every one up to day on this post.
 

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#3 ·
Id toss the piston the CW kit comes with in favor of a CP or JE piston, 12:1. There is no point in doing the bigbore with stock compression piston. Specially since you are doing everything else. Ask RE about it, they will tell you the same.
 
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#4 ·
Looking forward to your build.

As stated, ditch the 10.5:1 piston. You're a little optimistic with your power estimates, but that's alright, just put it together right and whatever the dyno says, that what it is, don't get too hung up on the numbers.

The Rossier pipe is a great pipe, hopefully RE can help you out with a head pipe, that would be pretty sweet!
 
#5 ·
Will rossier sell you just a head pipe?
There were some testes done a long time ago by member 556king and he used a ESR header with other cans and it worked very well, but I'm sure RE has something around to build one out of just thinking it might cost to much.

I'm another one going to say buy a 13-1 piston and have it cut down, unless someone makes a 97mm 12-1. I don't remember how much .030 off the head raises the compression.

Who is assembling the engine? Your numbers could be in reach if all the little things are done plus going larger on the carb.

Speaking of the carb, why 41mm? And what intake are you going to use.

Last I would ditch the big gun CDI and pass on the dyna and just run a stock unit.
 
#6 ·
@hoser @CJM @hoser
Good Thing I have not ordered that Top End Kit yet because I thought the same thing about 10:5.1 is kinda low of a Compression Ratio for the power I am wanting.

Little cheaper rout, I could just Buy the CW kit and buy a JE Piston and use the JE Piston in the CW Cylinder and then just sell the CW Piston and it's Hardware for 100 bucks. I don't see the Harm unless the CW Cylinder is Junk? Reason I say that is because I can't seem to find a kit from JE or CP that is got the entire Pre Pressed Cylinder with a Piston, it's just usually only the Piston or just a sleeve with a Piston. I just would hate to spend 200 getting a Cylinder Pressed and bored then another 200 sending the cylinder off to get Nikasil Plated ya know? I mean if I have to I will do that.


@hawk-trx
I haven't tried to contact them by phone yet but I will and see what they can do for me. I didn't know ESR made a head Pipe, I'll look into that thanks for the info.

As for the 13:1 CP Piston, I'm thinking about getting the CP piston and running it in the CW Cylinder. I know since I got my head already Decked at 0.030, my Compression Ratio would be extremely high. I was thinking for Clarence as well maybe I can do a Composite Gasket, OEM Metal Gasket and then another Composite Gasket to make the Cylinder Deck Hight sit up about .025 higher, not sure what those gaskets would measure out to be after being squished... Or should I just get the piston cut? Reason I say that is because I wanna keep my Compression Ratio just high enough to run 91 "110 on occasions"

I am doing all the assembling, having RE Machine what ever parts need to be machined.

As for the 41mm FCR, I got it used off blown up 07 CRF450R. My plans are to bore it along with this build that's why I bought a 41mm because they're capable of being bored to 43.5 if wanted to go that big.
 
#7 ·
JE doesn't make a 97mm piston unless it is a custom piston for a shop.
CP only makes one 97mm piston and it comes in 13-1 compression, again unless a shop has they custom made.

Decking the head doesn't change the squish but does decrease the valve to piston clearence but with a stage 3 you should have plenty of V-P clearence however it's always a good idea to clay your motor.

On the carb, what intake are you going to use? If you're planning to run the stock tube you are going to need a noss adaptor so it would be better to have it installed before you had the carb bored.
A bored carb is one of the best bang for the buck hp mods you can do once you have the carb itself. Going to 43mm will gain you 3+ hp over the stock carb. Keep in mind the losses are progressive so spending money on a great head and not allow enough air to feed it won't allow your new head to do what it's capable of.
Think of it as a funnel in reverse, the head it the big end and the filter/intake is the small end, no matter how much the head will flow the filter, intake, carb, and manifold, will all limit the air to the head.
 
#8 ·
Also keep a couple other things in mind. Your head is decked .030 so that should be about a full point of compression on the 04/05 head and you could use a 2 layer head gasket and raise compression another half point to be aprox 12-1 with the piston the comes with the kit.
Plus you could take some off the bottom of the cylinder to tighten up your squish and raise compression a little more.

What kind of riding do you do? I'm not questioning John's recommendation but if you ride mx or woods I would think the stage 2 would be a better choice. By running a decked head of .030 you are also retarding your cam 2-3 degrees which will make the stage 2 perform more like a stage 3 would on a stock head and move the power even further right on a stage 3, and in that case I would withdraw my suggestion on running the stock CDI as the cam would still be pulling at the stock rev limit.

You can also just bore and plate the stock cylinder to 97mm and buy a cp and have it cut down .065 to run pump gas, that would be by far the least expensive way to go on a 480. I would not run a sleeved cylinder myself, not that they don't work just to much potential problems and the PC has to be set up looser.
 
#9 ·
John at RE can cut down the piston. I was debating the same build myself sometime ago and he offered to me that it was possible. I wound up going in another direction anyways.
 
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#10 ·
I kinda figured that much about JE because I did in fact look for a 97mm JE Piston I could only fund a 94mm(for 04-05's ) and a 96mm (06+ only) Then only ones "that I could find" was the CP in a 97mm, so makes sense of why I was not finding a Big Bore JE.

I have also been running the FCR Carb for a while now on my Stock motor with just a 11:5.1 Wiseco Piston, so I already have had the NOSS Adapter for a while I actually ordered that the same day that I got the FCR Carb. I will bore it to 43 since it's only about 150.00 Bucks, that's in my range still.

Good way to put it with the Funnel that makes everything come into perspective of what you're saying.

The riding I do.
I like Drag Racing against a few friends and random people ...I have been beat by a couple of buddy's on their stock YFZ's too sooo lol... But I do some longer Trail Rides at about 30 to 50 mph so I mean I still want Reliability but I want that power. We all ride kinda fast and hard so I can use as much Low to Mid power gain as I can get.


So are you saying Go with the DynaTek & Stage 2 Cam?
What about an Adjustable Cam Sprocket if I were to get a Stage 3? If I went with the Stage 3 then I could have Racers Edge Degree the cam back exactly where it needs to be couldn't I?

I really like that Idea of Running the CW Piston Kit, 2 Layer head gasket, and shaving the bottom of the Cylinder I assume that's what you were implying, that would bring it to 12:1 as you stated. Also probably the easiest and cheaper rout.
 
#11 ·
Also. Any Idea where I can get a new Right Side Bearing Collar? I cannot find one ANYWHERE! I accidentally broke mine using it to press out the old Crank bearing! I have not Received my Hot Rods Crank Kit yet and wondering does it come with that "collar" part in the kit? It has no part number, and they don't show it on any parts Diagrams except they do show it in the Service Manual but does not mention what it is or anything. I just know it's a Bearing Collar. Here is the "Collar" Part I broke d.a.m.n it! It's the part that slides between the Crank Shaft and In side of the main right Bearing. I circled it in red to show Exactly what it is.
 

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#12 · (Edited)
Actually I think the Hot Rods does come with that piece, I believe that is the "Updated" part that is what caused allot of the 04/05's Rods bearing Failures. So anyways back to the Build Talk you guys can Ignore my post before this one if you want.
 
#14 ·
I would have thought you could buy that collar from any place with a oem parts fiche. Guess I'm wrong though.

You can absolutely use a adjustable cam gear and degree your cam back to zero, otherwise I would run the stage 2 myself. But I have to be honest, I'm not a fan of the stage 3. For me it didn't do anything more then the old hrc cam and it did the same while also making a bunch more noise and having a bunch more lift so if I can get the same results from a easier on parts cam I'm going to go that route. So for me and the kind of riding you do I would still pick the S2
A buddy lost over a full hp going from the stage3 to a sparks tt cam but picked up 3 lengths on the hill because of the better mid range, now he might have been able to run the same speed with the stage three ans one Thoth larger on the read sprocket to keep the rpm's up some.

If RE is assembling the motor then I'm sure he will chuck the cylinder in the lathe and take off what it needs to get the squish right.
A flat piston is great for making power, you don't have a dome to obstruct exhaust gases from getting to the exhaust valves. I have to admit I know nothing about the piston that comes with the kit but I have never heard anything bad about them, other then people saying "toss the junk piston and buy a CP" when 99% have no idea why they are calling the piston junk. (That's not talking about anyone in this thread who said toss it for compression reasons) there is no way the piston weighs as much as the stock piston so unless it has subpar oilers and a poor or weak design I'm sure it will be better then a stock piston and there are thousands of 04/05's running around on original pistons still.

As for the dyna, here was my experience, I never got to test it on the dyno, but I was slower on every curve other then the stock, on the stock curve it was hard to tell if there was any difference between the dyna and my stock CDI
We did multiable drag passes on each curve to test it. Now if the stock curve had an extended rev limit it would be worth it for me as I'm making peak power when the stock CDI pulls the plug, I also didn't have the ability to program a custom curve, and John does. I just consider mine a safty item to keep me from blowing it up by pushing it to hard besides I never ride at the rev limit.

You have lots of options and pick what is right for you and your riding style and the kind of riding you do, don't let my being a dune rider, or someone being a drag racer, or a max hp engine builder dictate what goes in your motor. My favorite MX cam is the 06hrc/crf cam, even though it makes less power I am quicker on the track with it do to how I ride.
 
#15 ·
You won't find a JE or CP cylinder "kit". The CW is a new cast cylinder, not a sleeve that's been pressed in. The CW is a good cylinder, I've had good success with them.

As far as using the piston that comes with the CW kit, and partly in response to Hawk's comments, I am pretty sure the piston that comes with the kit is a cast piston. So while yes it will be durable and last a long time, it's not a high performance piston. I have several of the cylinders, and have ordered new ones, but I've never looked at the piston in the kit, so I am not 100% sure it's cast.

That "collar" is just part of the bearing, so it will come with the bearing you order for your crank. If for some reason you need one I have a bunch laying around.
 
#16 ·
Are you kidding me? In a modern high rev four stroke they are using cast pistons? I know lots of oem pistons are cast but why would they do that?

Ryan, I would find out before I moved forward with that piston, I'm very sorry for the advise I just assumed they would be a forged piston. Like hoser said, not that they wouldn't work, but if it were me I would run a forged piston.
When I bought my CW cylinders you could buy the seep rat and Paul at woodwards made me a great deal if I bought 4 of them so I have never had a piston that comes with the kit in my hands.

Again, sorry for not having all the information.

You could always get an Athena kit. More money but it is a little stronger cylinder and those pistons are forged, I'm not sure about the compression ratio on them
 
#17 ·
I'd be on a degree wheel to get the cam timing in check and then claying it long before worrying about chopping more off the cylinder or running a 2 layer head gasket. There aren't going to be a whole lot of shelf pistons that are going to clear -.030 and a cam that's .409.
 
#18 · (Edited)
@hawk-trx
So I'll take your advice and do the Stage 2 for sure since you seem to have Experience with both and I run a 15T front Sprocket most of the time (unless I'm dune riding) As for the Pistons, I did notice that the ones from CW Look kinda Bulky like am OEM Casted Brick but yeah I'm sure the CW Piston is better then Factory Piston as you mentioned, like you said there are still Thousands out there running OEM piston still, but I do wanna get away from Cast Piston and go Forged. No need to sorry man! I have only Orderd a Bottom end so far so I got time to decide but I still think I'll do the CW Kit just for the Cylinder, and buy a Separate Forged piston. I found a 97mm CP for 250 bucks.


@hawk-trx
I'm gonna be kinda Technical here so re read it a couple times if you don't understand exactly what i'm saying plus I'll put the 05 and 06+ Wire Diagrams below.

Now as for the CDI, I actually have a good idea, I was looking at the Wire Diagrams Comparing the 05 and 06 Diagrams I found out a way that you can use the "06+ Kick Start" CDI box in a 04/05 as long as you buy the "HRC Harness Connector/Adapter" so that way you can Ground out the "Carb Safety Switch" wire which is the Pink/Black Wire on a Stock 06+ CDI Box and just leave the "Green Wire" disconnected because it would just act as a "Green Wire Mod" looking Closely at the 2 Diagrams the Only difference on the 05 vs 06 Box is the 06+ have a Throttle Safety Over Ride Switch on the Carburetor and random Throttle Switch at the Thumb Throttle which is where the famous "Green Wire" goes to then comes back to the CDI as a Gray/Red Stripe after going through the Thumb Throttle Switch. Then all the other Plugs on the CDI all of those wires go to the Exact same places as the 04/05's this is crazy! I looked at all this because I know the 06+ ignition Curves with the Cut Green wire are a super smooth and seems to be a perfect timing curve which would be great to have 10,500 RPM plus a Used 06+ Box is dirt cheap and offers a safe Curve and higher Rev not always going to peg the limiter but I do love the Feeling of that Constant Pull of Power and not hitting the Limiter so suddenly like the 05 stock CDI boxes. I noticed with the Big Gun box (yes i can rev higher ans it is a little more Responsive) but you can feel the power drop off at like I wanna guess 8500 RPM's vs the stock box seems like as soon as I get to my peak power the limiter is there as you said also.


@hoser
Thanks for the additional Information on the Pistons. Also awesome if I need a Collar I'll toss you a few bucks through PayPal or something, I'll let you know I appreciate it man!
 

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#19 ·
@morgan
Thanks I will remember that into I appreciate all the Replies so far.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'll be the first to say I know absolutely nothing about how the electronics work on our quads. I was told the 06+ CDI can't work on the 04/05 but again I don't know. I tried a dyna and went back to stock, that's as far as my knowledge goes.

There are a few members that can help much more then me, Morgan being one of them and gboezio is another
 
#21 ·
Oh okay. But Yeah I am bumping around a few ideas on the Piston idea though.
 
#22 ·
Double check with John on the cam too. I looked at my logs and when I was playing with cams I had a different head on the quad. In the dyno room Matt has a comparison of the stage2 and 3 where the 3 never dips below the 2.
I'm still not a fan of the 3 for a .409 lift cam I will take either the web 242 or 208 but it's been a long time sense I played with my motor and the cams might respond different with new port layouts then when I did my testing if John is recommending it there must be a reason.
 
#23 · (Edited)
@hoser
So I received my new Crank Shaft today it DID come with the Updated Style crank bearing Collar Thanks God lol. I did notice allot of "updated" features on the New Crank compared to the old one. From my understanding I can see that the old style crank would "Walk back and fourth due to that old "Collar" not being Locked into place, I see that the new one has a new style Pressed Lock holding the new Collar into place.
@hawk-trx
John said if I do wanna run a Hot Cams Stage 3 the best would be to go with a 11:5.1 97mm CP Piston for my Budget, he will need to cut "Reliefs" a little deeper (he said Bring it to him at the point of Top End Work) so he can do measurements and all to help the piston clear the Valves if I decided to go with Stage 3. He also said the same exact thing as you about that Stage 2 will be a better set up because the Cam Timing is at Negative 3 with 0.30 off the head the stage 2 cam Performs best. Then I mentioned an Adjustable Cam Sprocket then he said Stage 3 will probably be fine because they can Zero the Cam timing back out to where it should be but still would need to cut Reliefs, for my Budget it would be best to bore the Stock Cylinder and get it re Plated, I guess the overheating Issue will not be that much of a worry. Either way it would be best to Cut clearances for the Piston to be on the same side.

Because 10,000+ RPM's just once not enough clearance between Piston2valves would ruin your whole life lol. I agree.
 
#24 ·
I guess I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel to get to 60HP, a number that's been done half a million times by now. Your motor will be done making power before 10k+ RPM, so why rev it so far? You can make high 60s easy with a stock 04/05 box, so why the 06+ box? You literally can not guess what the cam timing will be on a build by how much is cut off a head, there are other things that effect it. My first step would be deciding what bore size you're going to do. Then, grab a piston (a nice CP) and mock it up. Check the cam timing with a STOCK sprocket and see where it's at. If it's in the 108-110 range on the ILC, then clay it and see where the piston to valve is. This way if you need to cut the valve reliefs bigger to get a .050/.080 minimum then you use that to loose some of your compression rather than chopping off the dome and winding up with lower static than desired.

Use an adjustable gear after all other options have been extinguished. If down the road, you need to adjust the valves, and you pull it apart and aren't careful, you'll wind up with completely different cam timing if you don't degree it back in. I've seen it a million times...gets pulled apart, goes back together and is down on power and it's cause the cam timing is out to lunch. To me, it seems like you're making this way you harder on yourself than it needs to be.
 
#25 · (Edited)
@morgan
Did you read the entire thread? Or you just one of those guys who have to have that one opinion and nobody else is ever? Maybe I didn't state a few things Clear enough my bad...

I'm not just gonna start slapping **** together and call it good after spending a bunch of money like you just practically said... Everything you just said is what I am planning on doing... My plan is to do the Mock Ups with clay to watch my Clearance (I might even leave that Part up to Racers Edge) there is high Possibility they said that I need the Piston Valve Reliefs Cut Deeper because they do this type of Build A LOT... Now s for the Cam timing because I have had .30 taken off of the Head in the past when I was mostly stock John at RE said that will be close to about -3 Degrees in Retarding the Timing he was not 100% sure about that bt he knew it was close to that (hence Why I said I'll let RE degree the Cam Shaft) so he can see exactly where it needs to be set, as for the Valve Adjustments it's not that Difficult to leave a small Scratch Mark on the Cam and Cam Gear to know where to Exactly re position the Cam Gear before a Valve Adjustment.


The Piston
The Piston size, I have said a million times I'm doing a 97mm Bore, just wasn't sure what piston, I am now yes going with a 11:5.1 97mm CP Piston.


The CDI Box
I know that about the 10K Rev limit... The 2006+ CDI is just an IDEA to help move my Power Curve up while having a safe Curve. The stock box for the 04/05's will hit my limiter right at the peak Power Curve with my set up..Why hit your Max Power at your rev Limiter? That would be pointless.


Reinventing the Wheel to get 60HP
I never claimed to be the first guy in the world to wanna achieve 60HP, it's a Goal and if I don't hit 55 to 60 HP then O well... I know that other people have hit 60+ HP Many many other people have Hence why I wanna do a precise Build. If I hit 55 or more then I can feel good about my build if not, hey I tried. This is mostly for fun and for having fun on the bike when it's done.
 
#26 ·
No, I'm a details guy. My post wasn't a shot at you, rather an attempt to give you some more food for thought.

Being a details guy...you have .030 cut off your head, not .30. Next, there is no 11.5:1 97 bore 04/05 piston from CP. It's a M2055 which is 13:1. So, this is where my comment regarding cam timing/clay checking/valve relief cutting comes into play. The only way you're going to get a 13:1 shelf piston to 11.5:1 is by cutting the dome down, a lot. I've cut down countless 2055's to run them on pump gas and have what's needed to take off the dome to get a desired compression in my notes. So, like I said, cut the valve reliefs first before you ever touch the dome. Next, why would you not want to make peak power at the rev limiter? You would have to make peak power at the rev limiter first before ever knowing that you need an additional 1000 RPM or whatever the case may be. I'd put money on your setup being done long before the 9800 RPM rev limiter of a stock 04/05 box, no offense. Small carb, head may or may not be what it needs to be, short duration, mediocre pipe, UNI air filter, unknown intake, etc don't add up to be a 10k+ RPM monster.

At any rate, best of luck with your build.
 
#27 ·
Oh okay, my bad for having a pissed of sounded response but they do have a CP Piston that is 11:5.1 in a 97mm.


Well I tried to post a link to the Piston I'm talking about but for some reason this Forum wont allow me to post a link but here is the details on the Listing



97mm CP Piston Kit

Fits Honda TRX450R Years 2004 & 2005

11.5:1 compression (the ONLY 97mm pump gas piston made)
Piston includes rings, pin, and circlips
Fits all 97mm cylinders
Includes Cometic top end gasket kit
Forged from 6061T aluminum
X forging is strongest available
Fits all models
Works with race gas or pump gas

Please feel free to call with any questions 909-782-8012

(Phone hours are 8am-5pm Monday thru Friday PST)
 
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